Flaminia Coup -the Bugatti-Wagen- - Page 10 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #136 of 557 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 03:47 AM
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Its something people new to repairing, or fabricating metal don`t realise in that every blow has a ripple effect with the effect often showing some distance away from where the direct hammering is occurring as the metal is stretched, and flows. Depending on how much hammer work is being done dictates how much the piece "grows".
I admire those shut lines you`ve achieved Hubert. I`ve got to work on that with the Flavia coupe which is not "Lancia standard" at the moment.

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #137 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-17-2015, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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A few weeks ago a friend paid a momentous visit to my shop. He had been working for a high end panel beater for some years and gave some very helpful hints. One of them was that the rolls of my English Wheel could be optimized. In fact they were quite old and the bearings were damaged, too. He recommended Justin Baker, a specialist located in UK, where else. I contacted Justin, and described my project. He recommended a set of anvils (that is how he calls them), and I ordered them. At that I decided to reduce the throat of my English Wheel, because although quite heavily built, the throat of 1000 mm led to a suboptimal stiffness. The new throat now is about 600 mm and the machine feels very sturdy. It is still big enough to make a door leaf i hope.

More than that my friend taught me some tricks on finishing welding seams. Will have to incorporate them into my operation method. Well, he also sharpened my view (again) on the details, do not yet know were it will lead me. One consequence is that my tools need to be adopted to better fit the task. (See the small hammer, which i had to give a radius to)

It is getting cold outside now, time to turn back to the Bugatti-Wagen.

Hubert
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Flaminia GT 3C, Flaminia Convertibile 3C, Flavia Convertibile 1.8, A112 Abarth, Flaminia Coupé 2.5, Fulvia Sport 1.3S, Unimog U900
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post #138 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-17-2015, 07:54 PM
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That gutter you show in the second photo, is the tool bit you are using on a pneumatic planisher?
The piece in the vice, how have you shrunk that to get the curve - Tucking fork, or that hammer with the now slightly curved tip ( I use one exactly like that). Very keen to hear the technique regarding weld finishing.

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #139 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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pneumatic planisher

Richard, yes the tool bit is one of the tools for the planishing hammer. It is very usefull but is no use if you have to get away with too much material.

The curve has been made by means fo my stretcher/shrinker, in this case used the shrinking tools.

Today the upper lip of the rear boot panel has been completed. I had made the first bend before and aligned it with the strechter/shrinker as well. Made the second bend in three main steps. First I equipped my beading machine with a pair of cylindrical rolls. Then I passed the panel through the rollers step by step bending the free side. Second the lip was bent further step by step in the vice. Third the lip was corrected in the stretcher/shrinker. Part of the stretch resulting from step one and two had be removed.

(pics partially belong to next text)
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Flaminia GT 3C, Flaminia Convertibile 3C, Flavia Convertibile 1.8, A112 Abarth, Flaminia Coupé 2.5, Fulvia Sport 1.3S, Unimog U900

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post #140 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Welding finishing

The experts will now say, ah yes, no news, only basics. But still if not new for me, I forgot a lot and had to call back to my mind.

First my friend told me to use the body file for identification of uneven spots. See pics one and three above this article. The marked areas (e.g. yellow circle and black arrows) are too low, need to be planished from back side. If you did not work accurate enough before, which is the case with the shown part, insanity will spread in your brain.

Second, trim the two panels so that they fit without gap. Easily said! I paid very much attention to this point, when trimming the upper lip and the main panel, also avoided corners, cut round curves instead. (see pic).

Weld without rod, avoid additional material by all means! Weld in short sections (i went for 5 to 10 cms) and rectify these sections immediately while the material is still hot.

My intellect absorbed these hints like a sponge and then I started putting the two pieces together. Spot welded them first (made first mistake I think, should have made more spots).

At the beginning it worked as it should, I interrupted welding and hammered the seam, resulting an an even distortionfree area. But after about half the distance, I lost track. Instead of flowing together the two edges starting moving away from each other as soon as I approached the flame to them. Had to stop in short intervals to hammer the edges in position again and had to use some wire to fill. Finally the result was still quite a progress compared to other welds I have made, but it is not totally clear to me why the second half of the weld caused so many problems. Maybe my concentration went down, and I missed the perfect position of the welder, I don´t know.
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post #141 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 06:08 PM
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I use the same technique however the spot welds have to be closer otherwise the metal edges "grow away" from you. I start at each end, then progressively move in at even spaces basically halving each gap but a long pause between to settle things down as you want the metal cold. Hardest part I find is having the patience to wait as I enjoy welding and have to stop myself from seaming once I start. I also have a very good gas torch known as a Henrob (but also known as a Cobra) which gives excellent control and as little heat as a mig if wanted. It is brilliant for body welding or brazing. Usually I am able to use very little filler rod. I learnt this from a CD by David Gardiner which I bought after seeing his demo on YouTube.

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #142 of 557 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Had a 2.8L pattern in the shop the other day.

Cut the wing right where the old welding seam was this time. The passenger side looks better than the other.

Hubert
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post #143 of 557 (permalink) Old 11-06-2015, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Passenger side sill removal

A lot of sand remaining from blasting.

Hubert
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post #144 of 557 (permalink) Old 11-06-2015, 01:06 PM
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Just as well you have a lot of experience with these Flaminias as there is still a huge amount of fabrication work on that side to be done and if you weren`t so experienced there would be a fair amount of guesswork as to what was missing because of past rusting away of parts.
Those bars I see, are they part of the structure or have they been put there by you to prevent the whole thing collapsing in on itself while you cut away and replaced pieces?

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #145 of 557 (permalink) Old 11-07-2015, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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No, the bars are Lancia or Pininfarina. One of the reasons why I left the driver side open is to have a picture of how parts fit together. I experienced, that when dismantling things everything is totally clear and when trying to put them together three weeks later it is all gone. I take many photos but still have to notice that sometimes the view needed is not among them.

Only one of the four webplates has to be replaced and I have a set of well-preserved templates on the table. Note the quality of the spot welds in the rear wheel house (#3).

I am getting back into business again!
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post #146 of 557 (permalink) Old 11-07-2015, 11:27 PM
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I Think you will find they are plug welds in the rear of the sill attaching the Wheel well. I have a touring I am restoring and Lancia used them in a few places that they couldn't get a spot welder in.

Cheers Ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #147 of 557 (permalink) Old 12-04-2015, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Welds

Ian, I simply missed the right vocable. They are plug welds, as you say. But they do not look professional, as many other welds do on this car.

Hubert
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post #148 of 557 (permalink) Old 12-04-2015, 11:42 AM
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Hubert, is that a drain tube I see in that new panel you made? Did this just terminate within the sill structure or connect up with another piece?

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, 72 Spider, '74 2000 GTV, ,`00 156
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post #149 of 557 (permalink) Old 12-04-2015, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedesco View Post
They are plug welds, as you say. But they do not look professional, as many other welds do on this car.

Hubert
Italian cars of that period have the ugliest of welds. My 1750 GTV in many areas look like somebody was learning how to weld on it. Ferraris of the period are the same, even the F1 cars.

I've never understood this. They make the most beautiful castings but, while their welds don't fail, they look like *****

Was it related the quality of workers hired for differing jobs?. Was body building a poorly paid profession and therefore close to unskilled workers were shown how to weld in a ~1 hour lesson and then chucked on to the production line? Did they have a high turnover of staff meaning they never mastered welding?
Pete

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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #150 of 557 (permalink) Old 12-06-2015, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedesco View Post
Ian, I simply missed the right vocable. They are plug welds, as you say. But they do not look professional, as many other welds do on this car.

Hubert
Hi Hubert
Yes the Lancia platform his very well made but you can see some parts are welded by hand on the production line.
On my car some of the work by touring is good and some not so good. But most lancia work is very good.
By the way I love the work you are doing and am jealous of you beautiful workshop
Cheers Ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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