CISITALIA 202 Cabrio - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 03:09 PM
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Cisitalia 202 N. 089 and 101

Two Cisitalia cars are currently known to have existed with chassis number "089".

089 ... mot. 154, a berlinetta 2 posti, was given a Cd'O on 13 April 1948 but was first sold 12 January 1949. It is unknown since 1953.

089SC ... mot. 211, a cabriolet by Stabilimenti Farina (body number ending __51) was given a Certificato d'Origine date of 13 December 1948 and was not sold and registered until August of 1950.


101 ... mot. 112, a cabriolet Vignale was first sold 12 June 1948. Another car (berlinetta, chassis N. 071) also has an engine numbered "112".

Cisitalia "0101" with Ermini engine "003", a spider by Motto, was given a Cd'O date of 28 January 1952 and this may have been a "favor for a friend"? More research can be done that will probably reveal additional details.
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post #62 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dott.cisitalia View Post
This car is not Pininfarina,is Vignale
Telaio # 118 motore # 238 1950
Found many years ago in Punta Gorda- Montevideo- Uruguay
Sold $ 30,624 Barrett-Jackson/Coys,Monaco 5/17/2002
Very incomplete car.
Has intake manifold special Nardi with 2 Solex.
The steering wheel is not original
Regards
dott.Cisitalia
For the record, this steering wheel is by a company called Robergel. Robergel supplied both steering wheels and road wheels for Italian and French cars in the 1940's and 1950's, including Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Simca Sport, Ford Comete, and others. I don't think it is too farfetched to believe that Vignale might have used a Robergel wheel originally on this Cisitalia.

Also, I have an early letter from Nardi indicating that he preferred Solex carburetors when modifying the Fiat 1100 motor with his dual carburetor manifold.

Peter Zobian
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post #63 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 03:28 PM
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Cisitalia 202 N. 142 and 146

Confusions here as well!

"142B" now revealed (11//2011) to be an old reference to 148 when it was reported and listed incorrectly for a number of years.

142SC ... mot. 267 berlinetta (probably Vignale with body #12) came from Uruguay to the USA. If it has a Pinin Farina body (as has been promoted), then perhaps the body number ends __12? Some information was received 2007 that seemed to have details that correlate to this car and yet the chassis number reported was "146".

146SC ... mot. 269 cabriolet Vignale ... sold circa 1988 from Argentina, perhaps to Veniero Molari (also deceased, I'm sorry to say) who may have been acting for another? This car was mentioned earlier in this thread and as a nit-picking detail I ask this question not only to correct the earlier reference but also with the hope of learning more. This car was offered May 1995 by Coys in London but apparently did not sell until a later Coys auction in September?

Last edited by iicarJohn; 11-13-2011 at 04:36 PM.
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post #64 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iicarJohn View Post
Cisitalia "0101" with Ermini engine "003", a spider by Motto, was given a Cd'O date of 28 January 1952 and this may have been a "favor for a friend"? More research can be done that will probably reveal additional details.
I believe "0101" is the same car pictured in the Balestra Cisitalia book, and identified as by Frua. I do believe it is by Carrozzeria Motto as it is very similar to my Motto 1100 Sport.

Peter Zobian
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post #65 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 03:59 PM
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Chassis 118SC

I have no personal familiarity with this car. All information has come to me from other sources. But, some perspective seems warranted.

There is a difference between "original" and "historic" in many of these cars. Cisitalia 118SC was a car made by Cisitalia, a company that was making speed equipment of their own as part of the process of building a car called "Cisitalia". The mechanical portion of the car was largely assembled by Cisitalia from parts of their own manufacture mixed with parts (often "Fiat") that had received some amount of work to make them "Cisitalia". These were then mixed with some parts from outside suppliers. There was apparently some exchange between Abarth and Cisitalia in later cars. The same sort of casual exchange is not likely to have happened between Nardi and Cisitalia or Nardi and Abarth.

If Cisitalia were to have supplied a car with a Nardi manifold and Solex carburetors (Nardi's preference for street cars), this unlikely marriage would have come at the insistence of a particular customer. It is far more likely that someone fitted the Nardi manifold and Solex carburetors at a later time. It could have been within weeks for all we know and therefor may be quite historic! Remember that many Cisitalia engines were fitted initially with single-carburetor manifolds. A Nardi twin-carburetor manifold was an obvious option for someone seeking enhanced performance, economy ... or who justwanted to get rid of a problematic carburetor that was not behaving. No reflection on the maker of the original carburetor, whatever it was, but we've all become frustrated with something that just does not seem to work? Once making a switch, we sometimes learn that it was not really (the carburetor that was) the problem!

The original steering wheel is an item that was fitted by the coachbuilder. There were "normal" steering wheels that were used and there were special requests from builders, dealers and individual clients. This is another item that was also easily changed as an accessory. And, it can be changed at any time once enough study has been done to know what is "correct". One way or another.

My own feeling is that "original" may not be as important as "historic"? Some study of the early history of 118SC is in order! This may be more important than studying the characteristics of any other similar car?
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post #66 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 04:13 PM
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The 202 cabriolet telaio # 148 motore #271,body #9113,is one of my cars
I have the original engine but i prefer to put the Savonuzzi engine.
Sergio
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post #67 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 04:33 PM
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Grazie dottore!

It is good to identify the body number and it is good to remove the erroneous references to "142B" that have been reported previously. Now I will remove the incorrect portion of the posting above as there is no need to continue any unnecessary confusions. I've now made updated notes in about five listings that I use to help study these cars.

John
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post #68 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 04:38 PM
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"0101"

Chassis "0101" has been reported in times past as "Frua" rather than "Motto".
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post #69 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 07:07 PM
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Off subject but the Cisi shown at around 2:55 in this video has me curious as to
which one it is:


I just won this video at the Suzy Dietrich auction.
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post #70 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 09:05 PM
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Cisitalia? Not really. Maybe "Cisitalia"?

Hi Cliff, I found it at 2:42 on my computer's clock.

Not a Cisitalia but it seems that some Cisitalia parts were used in the construction.

I wrote a lengthy and appreciative reply that was lost to the vagaries of some aspect of the human-computer-internet interfaces. Sorry, but I'm not going to go into it all again just now. Thanks for sharing in any case!

This special car carries chassis number To102750To assigned in Torino. The "To" at the beginning and end represents a symbol where the "o" is stamped on top of the stem of the "T". The car was entered and raced as "Cisitalia" at the Giants' Despair hill-climb (July 1952) by Boris "Bob" Said who seems to have raced the car a couple of additional times during 1952. He was 2nd in class on the hill-climb. He was apparently the father of the more recent racer of the same name.

Lot's of other cool stuff shown in the films as well! Siata, Bandini, Nardi, Ferrari, Frazer-Nash, Maserati, Fiat 1100S, OSCA, MG, Jaguar, Allard, Porsche, Singer and more.

Thanks again.

John
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post #71 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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hello cisitalia-specialists,
this is a great constructive discussion with the background to bring more light into the dark of cisitalia.
interestingly, the background, with the fondness that nardi-solex carburetor has mounted. this is a very very rare part in combination with the great #118history
to all cases, we are very glad that there are so competent people here are to be imported into the matter can.
thank you very much
bernhard
P.S. here's a link to an interesting cisitalia-carburatore
http://www.ebay.at/itm/110771067274?...84.m1438.l2649

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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post #72 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 11:52 PM
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Carburetors

When my father purchased the unique Siata 300BC coupe N. ST*434*BC in 1978, it had a Nardi manifold fitted with two Solex carburetors. It is a very cool piece of period speed equipment for the Fiat 1100 engine. It delivers great efficiency more than outright power and speed. It is not likely to be original to the car because Siata was making their own similar manifold at the time the car was built. Knowing this, I can say that this reality does not make the Nardi manifold non-historic to the car but it would certainly be incorrect to make the statement that the manifolds and carburetors are "original". The same will be true of any Cisitalia unless one can produce original documents that show that the car was delivered with Nardi speed equipment as per a customer request. To think otherwise shows a lack of acceptance of the dynamics of the time in which these cars were built.

The Weber 36DR4 (as is being offered by the eBay link above ... by an Italian selling on eBay-Austria(?)) was supplied by Weber in more than one version. The 36DR4 was also offered in a "36DR4SP" version that probably replaced the plain "DR4" version in all applications still in production. There were 36DR5SP and 36DR6SP versions as well. Weber did not always refer to the suffix letters in their promotion so some references can be quite generic.

The basic 36DR4 was catalogued by Weber for Fiat 518 and Fiat 618 (light trucks) as well as Fiat 1100S and Cisitalia for which the 36DR4SP versions were developed. The "SP" version were probably then integrated into the other pre-existing offerings. Add to those: Citroen 11CV A/B/C, Peugeot 402 and 402B, Renault 603 and Renault AHS2.

The "SP" suffix probably indicated "Sport" and "Pompa", meaning that there was an accelerator-pump. The "pompa" was probably particularly useful in highly tuned small displacement engines, such as the Cisitalia.

The 36DR5 and "SP" versions were intended for use in some Lancia but can generally be used in the above-indicated cars as well, probably with jetting changes and perhaps other adjustments as well. The 36DR6SP was catalogued for the Fiat 1900 of 1953. It can probably serve reasonably well for all of the above ... if tuned properly.
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post #73 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-14-2011, 03:43 AM
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Nardi-Solex-Zenith

D46 "conservato",to day "Standart",of Mario Righini
Nardi-Zenith
dott.cisitalia

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

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post #74 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-14-2011, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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many thanks for all this great informations.
can someone tell me nearly what bumpers - design # 118 could have been original ?
best regards to the cisitalia-world
bernhard

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post #75 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-14-2011, 04:18 AM
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From "barn find"Argentina to Monaco Museum!!!!

202 B cabriolet telaio 146 SC motore 269
Serie B has optional dual Weber 36
dott.cisitalia

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

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