CISITALIA 202 Cabrio - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-09-2011, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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many thanks for collegial help !
there are still many questions to answer open at the restoration.
here my last project - http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/1900...storation.html
regards
bernhard

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post #47 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-12-2011, 02:54 AM
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This is my little contribution.
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File Type: pdf 202 cabrio list.pdf (22.3 KB, 432 views)
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post #48 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-12-2011, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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touring63

hello,
many thanks to all who provide such good and important information.
many questions to the specialists here will still give it to the #118 to make it a perfect car.
if anyone has any useful information, write us at any time here.
regards
bernhard
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post #49 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 01:40 AM
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Cisitalia 202 cabriolet chassis numbers

There are several errors in listings of old from various sources and I am certain that listings that I've updated regularly over the last many years still contain errors. It used to be that, every time I saw a Cisitalia car in person that had already been listed somewhere, there was some fundamental descriptive characteristic that was flawed.

Although I can currently list an additional thirty or more 202 cabriolet by chassis number, and remove a couple of "coupe" from Paolo's listing, I'm not certain that this is a meaningful exercise when we are trying to help establish what is "original" to a specific individual car. These cars were very much individuals and we oftentimes do each car (and their builders) an historical disservice when we try to pretend that certain cars had the same characteristics ... when we cannot know this in many cases.

Beginning with a couple of corrections:

The chassis "018" (Pinin Farina body) in my listings currently is a coupe. This does not make it impossible that there was also a cabriolet with this chassis number.

Chassis "056" currently has three cars listed that seem to have legitimate historic claims to the number. Two cabriolet cars are numbered "056SC". One with Pinin Farina body and one with Vignale body. Another "056" is a coupe by Pinin Farina. Clearly, there is potential for confusion!

Among the cabriolet by Pinin Farina in Paolo's listing, you may wish to remove "018", add 056SC taken from the "Stabilimenti Farina" grouping and add also 065SC and 098SC as well. I'm sure there are other examples to be revealed and described by additional studies.

For 202 cabriolet by Stabilimenti Farina you may wish to remove 056SC and "181B" as this last is apparently a duplicate listing referring to "180SC". To the Stabilimenti Farina 202 Cabriolet listing you may wish to add "033", "039"(?), "072SC", "078", "086SC", "089SC", "093SC", "117C", "128" (removed from the "Vignale" grouping), "142B" and "178SC". Again, there will be more one day.

For 202 cabriolet by Vignale, you may wish to add: "029", "050", "054, "056SC", "061SC", "062SC", "074", "077", "101", "103", "118SC", "146SC".

Two Castagna-bodied cars are known. 097SC and 154SC.

For 202 cabriolet by as-yet unidentified builders, you might add "033", "038SC", "048", "073SC" and "088SC".

Many of these cars are listed incompletely and we do not have enough data to be certain that the numbers were recorded accurately and completely with all prefix and suffix letters. Any revised listing will be subject to many corrections and/or confirmations as well as additions. Many leads remain for Cisitalia 202 cars in various forms.

John
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post #50 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 09:48 AM
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John, i like to compare, to correct and to share these informations, you know.
Thanks for your corrections and update.
I didn’t want to make public, for privacy reason, the name of the owners or the license plates. Cisitalia isn’t my primary matter, but i like very much this car.
I adopted a data crossing method, this is what i know more:

#018- it has an original italian plate, it joined in the MM52 (black), in 2006 it was completely restored in Amaranto (from Retroviseur magazine 03/2008).

#033- It’s one of the three cars founded in Argentina in 1990 (#008 and #162sc), it’s the car with the fin-tails. After the restore it joined in the 2011 1000miglia (from Ruoteclassiche 07/1997 and 10/2004).

#072sc 1949 S.Farina cabriolet, category winner at Villa d’Este in 1997
#073sc 1947 PF coupè wich joined in the last 3 1000miglia.
#089sc engine 211 1949 S.Farina cabriolet
#101 engine 102 1948 Vignale cabriolet
#142sc 1949 PF coupè showed at 1991 Colorado Grand and 1991 Pebble Beach.
#146sc engine 269 1948 Vignale cabriolet (Prince Ranieri)

I completely agree with you: this is a very difficult argument to inquire and i would like to learn more from anybody else. This work is still in progress.
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post #51 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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how much cabrio 202 build real ?

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post #52 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 10:02 AM
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Is this the #097sc Castagna?
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post #53 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 01:48 PM
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Castagna

Hi Paolo,

I don't know if the period photo shows 097SC. It seems likely but we don't yet know enough to say there was not another similar car.

John
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post #54 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 01:56 PM
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Cisitalia 202 N. 018

This car has an interesting ownership history that I've not finished researching. Engine number was "040" and I do not know if it still has this engine today.

The car was licensed in Venezia, Viterbo, Milano, Genova, Pavia, Parma, Piacenza and Terni over the years. More than 20 years ago I corresponded with the son of the owner "since 1970" but the car may have moved on more recently?

I don't know what the "Mille Miglia 1952" claim is based upon but I have to think that this is highly unlikely to be correct. I have seen photos of virtually all the 1952 MM cars (not just Cisitalia) and have identified a good many of them. For the few that remain as unidentified, I would say that none have the characteristics of 018. Perhaps the reference is supposed to be for another year?

John
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post #55 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:14 PM
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Yes this foto show the telaio # 097
The other Castagna,has diferent body and plate MI 15XXXX
Sergio
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post #56 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:27 PM
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Luis MacCormack - Buenos Aires

There are some confusions because Luis (who is no longer with us, I'm sorry to say) owned several Cisitalia cars. It may be that some confusions come from Cisitalia number confusions as well?

Cars he reportedly owned included:

008 ... mot. 015 berlinetta Stabilimenti Farina (or PF?)

033 ... mot. 060 berlinetta Pinin Farina "con codine". These "codine" were reported initially as "modifications". Cisitalia seems to have built two additional cabriolet with this chassis number.

079 ... mot. ((067)) ... fitted with mot. 170 ... historical data seems to be confused with some data from N. 033 ???

149SC ... mot. 314MM fitted or with car?

150 (?) ... mot. 274 cabriolet Stabilimenti Farina

159SC (?) (Reported as "159B") berlinetta Stabilimenti Farina

162SC ... mot. 287 (reported variously as: "162B" and as "162C with mot. 285")
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post #57 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:27 PM
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The telaio 018 in the article of Retro Viseur march 2008 202 cabriolet with plate BG 24XXX is a mistake. The telaio is 038.
This car did'nt run in the 1952 Mille Miglia. there is no register in the Mille Miglia archive 1952, driver E. Q. M.
Sergio
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post #58 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:30 PM
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John is right, but also Paolo.
I should say who the car present in the magazine Retroviseur 3/2008 is a cabriolet but not serial number 018 as written but is the 038 SC !!
In Retroviseur is present a cabriolet with italian plate BG 24886 for the Bergamo's city, and on the documents you can read the chassis 038 SC and the engine 003.
Almost certainly not is present at Mille Miglia 1952.
In this year was present two Cisi cabrio, the s/n 093 (dark) for the team: Ostani-Mazzuccato and a light-colored (white ?) for a Swiss team: Fehlmann-Vuille.
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post #59 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:42 PM
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Cisitalia 202 N. 072 and 073

Two cars are known to carry the chassis number "072".

072 was a berlinetta 2 posti but I do not yet know the coachbuilder identity.

072SC is a cabriolet by Stabilimenti Farina (body #8939). Two engines accompanied the car during the early 1990's. Engine "201" may have been original? Engine 182 was fitted as of 1997. In the past, this car has been listed as chassis "079".

Two cars are known to carry the chassis number "073".

073 ... mot. 115 berlinetta Pinin Farina (body #8854) came from Argentina to Italy in the 1990's.

073SC ... mot. 196 was a cabriolet that raced on the MM in 1950 and 1951 and was known in Italy until late 1960 but disappeared after that time.

As confusing as this might seem already, consider the possibility that there may be additional examples to discover either "in history" or existing today!

John
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post #60 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-13-2011, 02:55 PM
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033 these codine are not original. Today this car has the engine 314MM.
079 is a mistake. The correct number is 033.
149SC has not engine. The original engine is 314MM fitted with 033.
Sergio
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