CISITALIA 202 Cabrio - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 12:45 AM Thread Starter
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hello dott,
thanks for the pic. yes, the car has red paint before come to europe.
there is unconfirmed evidence that the car drive the mm before shipping to uruguay.
have more pictures?
thanks
bernhard

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post #17 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 04:00 AM
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Is very rare that 202 cabriolet ran the 1000Miglia,only a few examples.
Not your car
Yes,i have more photos
Have you done the list of parts?
Regards
Sergio
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post #18 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 AM
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Cisitalia 202B

Quote:
Originally Posted by dott.cisitalia View Post
Dear PG 1964:
Isn't serie B.
This serie 202 B begining with the telaio # 130.
Regards
dott.cisitalia

For Cisitalia cars it is perhaps best to think of seeming numerical "break points" as approximations rather than as absolutes. Not all chassis numbers were built/completed in order of their chassis numbers and this may help to explain a bit of the "why" of some inconsistencies. Not to mention the multiple use of certain chassis numbers!

As an fyi to all, chassis 129SC (Cd'O of "10//1949", sold 2//1950) has "Tipo 202B" written in early Italian registration records. There may have been some "earlier" Cisitalia 202 (by number) that were also completed and labeled as "202B"?

I've not yet confirmed, but 113SC (sold 7//1949, first registered 12//1949) has also been stated to be "Tipo 202B".

130SC was reportedly "built 12//1949"


John

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post #19 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 11:51 AM
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What i knew is the B specimen hadn't the splitted windscreen and a grill with 17 sticks instead of 23. I didn't recognize the car from the dashboard before and Lugo said it was a Vignale. After seeing the Touring63's photos on flickr.com i understood it was an earlier specimen.
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post #20 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 11:58 AM
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1949 Villa d'Este concours.
Is this the #129sc?
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post #21 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 02:14 PM
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The Italian Car Registry page 101 says" type B mechanicals fitted beginning here telaio 130". Is it a mistake?.
Cisitalia Book of Mario Simoni page 135 says " nella coda figura inizialmente solo il classico sportellino della ruota di scorta, che lascia poi il posto al cofano bagaglin sulla 202 B cabriolet".
I don't understand how is possible to speak about the condition of a car serie B when the car has not been examinated in early times.
I include photo with vetro diviso and sportellino. Serie B?.
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post #22 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 03:18 PM
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1994 Italian Car Registry

Yes. The 1994 statement about the "Tipo B" designation is inaccurate. But I had no reason to think so in 1994! New information flows all the time and research was done just this year that revealed the "202B" moniker that was given to 129SC. Incidently, the 129SC that is known today has been described as a coupe by Stabilimenti Farina. This does not guarantee that there was not a cabriolet by Vignale with the same basic chassis number, so I have to ask Paolo why he believes that the cabriolet at the 1949 Villa d'Este (with Vignale badge?) might be "129SC"?

The 1994 edition of The Italian Car Registry was a "progress report" on my own study of a large number of Italian cars. This was made quite clear in the many introductory pages that many have ignored. I tended to trust certain sources as having "inside information" that has not always proven to be absolutely correct when looking at individual cars. Some of this is quite understandable. I continue to seek to remove such undocumented claims from my listings when i come across them.

Information had come from Nino Balestra that was seemingly based on factory records and this indicated that the "Tipo B" break-point came between chassis 129 and chassis 130. I have now learned to not trust these kinds of statements precisely (without documentation) even if they sometimes turn out to be generally true. Sometimes actual documentation does not tell the full story of how complex the real world is and was when compared to what was promoted by various builders, not just Cisitalia. I do not know what the "202B" statement was based on originally but it could have been a vague statement made by either Carlo Dusio or even Piero Dusio himself? Sometimes we have only such statements to work with. And we students become "trapped" when we pass those statements on as if they are "fact".

When faced with evidence that contradicts what we've been told even by trusted sources, we should go back and review other things that we have learned from those same "trusted" sources. I now have doubts about a great many things that I had no reason to doubt in 1994. As you know, Sergio, Cisitalia is proving to be a very interesting and convoluted study!

There is some additional inconsistency that comes from some early records. The implication has been that the 202B had power raised to 60HP in the normal versions and 66HP in the "MM" versions and yet factory correspondence (from 1952?) indicates that 130SC had 55HP when delivered. I say again, each car can be a special case and should be considered individually. Which is why I am willing to accept the statement that 113SC is a "Tipo 202B" until we can say otherwise. It is possible that the claim was made casually but it is equally likely that the ID plate says just that. Then we get to hope that the ID plate is still the original!

I suppose it is possible to invent stories that are more convoluted than what we are learning about Cisitalia production and numbering, but what has been learned so far about Cisitalia numbering is already confusing enough! This is why I consider it very important to gather as many details as we can from the cars themselves. Chassis numbers (precisely recording how all characters appear, with letter prefixes, suffixes and any other characters), engine numbers (ditto for numbers that generally appear on both sides of the engine), block casting dates (generally low on the right side of the block ... when they are found) and body numbers (along with configuration) are all important parts of any thorough study. Pinin Farina, Stabilimenti Farina and Vignale each had their own numbering systems and each seems to have applied their system in different ways. There can be clues in this for us.

Less certain as to potential impications will be some accessory numbers, such as the type & serial numbers of each magneto and carburetor. Steering boxes were sometimes different from car to car. Wheel rims can be dated and sizes can vary. It can be that the Borrani markings simply changed. Some cars may have Abarth parts that were numbered ... or not.

Then we get to consider what is known of the history of each individual car, important to the car itself but also to others in a general sense and sometimes in specific ways. Once a car has been identified positively as being the car that did something, we can remove that possibility for all of the other cars that seem to be good candidates for having made the same history.

Personally, I think it is unlikely that any coachbuilder cared even a little bit whether a car was called "202", "202B", "202C" or "202SC". So, I would not go looking for exclusive characteristics in the body features, whether grille bars or bent-windscreens, in order to define this characteristic.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

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post #23 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 04:25 PM
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As a relatively recent (~1 year) owner of Telaio #158, the Lombardi and Kolliker car, I have found this thread to be quite informative. I have seen a brief mention of #158 in Mr. Balestra's book. I would certainly be very appreciative if anyone has any additional information or history on my car that they would be willing to share. Thank you.
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post #24 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 05:35 PM
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John,
Very interesting your words about the history and evolution of Cisitalia cars.
I think the original plate with B or C close the clasification of the car.
I include photo of the plate of my ex 202 B coupe.
Besides, I have 1 owner's book and catalogue parti di ricambi which has the indication of telaio, motore and serie.
Unfortunately, in my photos of the car in Montevideo, the plate exist, but not clear to see the numbers.
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post #25 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-06-2011, 11:43 PM
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Dr. Forensics?

Welcome "dr4n6". I'd heard from a prior owner that chassis 158SC had been sold after some restoration work was done in recent times. Congratulations!

As you probably know, we can associate Lombardi & Koelliker with three Cisitalia chassis numbers so far. I suspect there were others as well. Lombardi & Koelliker were major automotive dealers with outlets in both Milano and Torino. They sold more than Cisitalia. I have a "Lombardi & Koelliker" script that I found at a swap meet in Italy a few years ago. Perhaps taken from an Alfa? Perhaps from a Cisitalia or a Fiat ... or something else? "Cool stuff" for those who are into esoterica.

I saw 158SC near Torino in about 1990. It was still owned apparently by a fellow in Rome but was being offered by a father/son duo in Turin. We spoke mostly about some other topics of interest to me ... and them, but the Cisitalia was there and we also discussed it briefly. I've done some additional research (with the help of friends) and know the basic ownership history from the beginning. It has almost certainly been shared with you already? But, there is more research to do to fill in some missing data. This will require researching a Mantova plate issued 1960 in order to learn at least something about plates that were assigned earlier for previous owners ... If this has not already been done? Some effort and expense is involved and I can ask a friend to do this if you like ... if you are willing to pay him for the pleasant "trouble" to do so.

Your car was given a Certificato d'Origine on 30 March 1950. The completion date for the car "should be" only a short time earlier ... if not precisely on that day. But, it is also possible that this "origin" date was assigned roughly at the time that the chassis was sold and before the car was actually bodied and completed. Earlier registration plate research may have some additional information for us that may help to clarify? Or maybe not. There were ten owners recorded between 1950 and 1960, when the car was sold to "Ottario Gazzetta" in Mantova. Or maybe it was "Ottavio Gazzetta"?

Your car carries Vignale #23. We don't yet know how to place that number in context against a few other Vignale numbers that have also been found in other cars. Additional numbers are required before we make any assumptions. Your car also has hub-adapter numbers assigned by Borrani. Many earlier Cisitalia cars predate the numbering system begun by Borrani circa 1950.

Some claims were made in an auction catalogue description when your car was offered by Coys in 1995. I do not have any information that supports those claims ... but they remain "possible". Even so, I would not assume that you have the only "Lombardi & Koelliker" Cisitalia that remains. Nevertheless, it is certainly a special car. Again, ... Congratulations!

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
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post #26 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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very interesting information about cisitalia. thanks.
here another 202 sc # 183 with 286 engine.
regards
bernhard
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post #27 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 02:35 AM Thread Starter
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... #126 SC has engine 049 ??

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post #28 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iicarJohn View Post
New information flows all the time and research was done just this year that revealed the "202B" moniker that was given to 129SC. Incidently, the 129SC that is known today has been described as a coupe by Stabilimenti Farina. This does not guarantee that there was not a cabriolet by Vignale with the same basic chassis number, so I have to ask Paolo why he believes that the cabriolet at the 1949 Villa d'Este (with Vignale badge?) might be "129SC"?
John, you said before...."As an fyi to all, chassis 129SC (Cd'O of "10//1949", sold 2//1950) has "Tipo 202B" written in early Italian registration records."...Because i had this photo from the 1949 Vd'E concours, i supposed this car was the #129sc. Cd'O means certificato d'origine for you and coppa d'oro for me. Now your updated report says it was a S.Farina body and not a Vignale. It was a misunderstanding. Thanks!
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post #29 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 05:25 AM
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126sc & 183sc

My notes indicate that 126SC (a cabriolet by Vignale) had engine 244 originally but that it is said to have engine 049 today. I do not know the source of this engine. I saw this car almost 20 years ago before it was restored. I do not recall if it had an engine fitted at the time but may have some photos in my files?

202C N. 183SC (a cabriolet by Stabilimenti Farina) had engine 286 originally (as reported by the ID plate) but a 1964 inspection in Austria indicated that it was fitted with a Fiat 1100B engine from circa 1949. The same inspection apparently found the Stabilimenti Farina body number as well and reported it as "9537". This body number tends to support the "first sold 1952" statement made in the same documents. The body is only 6 "earlier" than a 202 "D" (BPM) coupe (previously reported as "cabriolet") that was first seen 1952, supposedly at the Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile in Torino.

John
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post #30 of 287 (permalink) Old 11-07-2011, 05:53 AM
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As John said before, one of the main problems is the recent restoration, when it's badly carried out everything is confused.
As Lugo said before the main external differences between a 202 and a 202B specimen are: a grill with less sticks, different bumpers, a non splitted windscreen and the trunk instead of the spare wheel door.

Here are 2 pics to prove what i'm saying: it's the same car, the personal Prince Ranieri cabriolet (i don't know the VIN) at the 1948 Monaco Gran Prix and in the Monaco museum today (restored).
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