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post #61 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
 
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I scraped the paint off of the ID plates today. And below is what I found !
Now the numbers mean something and hopefuly I/we can track this car down.
Let me know what you guys think
Earl
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post #62 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
 
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Just a few more pictures to look at.
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post #63 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 11:39 AM
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...mmm...i suppose one BIG cocktail of parts,,,,but...is THE BOOK!!
" le fiat fuori serie" = out of series Euro 14,00

Fiat 1200, 1500 e 1600 S fuoriserie

(and others books...i'am NOT interested..only for information)

models:
Fiat 1200 Cabriolet (1959/1963)
Fiat 1500 S Cabriolet (1959/1963)
Fiat 1500 Cabriolet (1963/1966)
Fiat 1600 S Cabriolet (1963/1966)

realizzate/product da/by:

Abarth, Allemano, ASA, Bertone, Boneschi, Breda, Cellarosi, Cisitalia Argentina, Ellena, Fissore, Michelotti, Monterosa, Morelli, Moretti, OSCA, Pininfarina, Savio, Scioneri, Touring, Vignale, Viotti, Zagato

PS. Earl...2 options))) A) the arab phoenix = unique models fiat/abarth spider WITH V8....or B) very cheap cocktail of parts
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Last edited by dan67; 06-22-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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post #64 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 03:31 PM
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tipo 225 engine

Berni Motori page says the Abarth tipo 225 engine was a 1500 S fiat Osca from 1960. Can't help with the chassis!

Abarth | Berni Motori - Cars - Twin Cam Engines - English

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post #65 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan67 View Post
...mmm...i suppose one BIG cocktail of parts,,,,but...is THE BOOK!!
" le fiat fuori serie" = out of series Euro 14,00

Fiat 1200, 1500 e 1600 S fuoriserie

(and others books...i'am NOT interested..only for information)

models:
Fiat 1200 Cabriolet (1959/1963)
Fiat 1500 S Cabriolet (1959/1963)
Fiat 1500 Cabriolet (1963/1966)
Fiat 1600 S Cabriolet (1963/1966)

realizzate/product da/by:

Abarth, Allemano, ASA, Bertone, Boneschi, Breda, Cellarosi, Cisitalia Argentina, Ellena, Fissore, Michelotti, Monterosa, Morelli, Moretti, OSCA, Pininfarina, Savio, Scioneri, Touring, Vignale, Viotti, Zagato

PS. Earl...2 options))) A) the arab phoenix = unique models fiat/abarth spider WITH V8....or B) very cheap cocktail of parts
yes, but this car is not in that book or ANY books(I have 4 Abarth books) and in any Fiat or Fiat fuoriserie books.. I have them all..

:-) Nik

Ferrari 330GT2+2 series 1, Fiat 1100SMM Pinin Farina,
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post #66 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pan68 View Post
What my book reveals:
The Vaughan IS the Fiat ghia isnt it? all the details are the same

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post #67 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Rausch View Post
Just a few more pictures to look at.
There is a 118S chassis number, a 118G chassis number and a Abarth chassis number here.. NO comments from me on this ..

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post #68 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evannice View Post
Berni Motori page says the Abarth tipo 225 engine was a 1500 S fiat Osca from 1960. Can't help with the chassis!

Abarth | Berni Motori - Cars - Twin Cam Engines - English
These plates certainly answered many questions. I read the engine type as 223 (not 225) which isn't listed on that site. Does anybody know what 223 is? (2200?)

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #69 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by biz5300 View Post
The Vaughan IS the Fiat ghia isnt it? all the details are the same
I'm not sure. The Simca Ghia would have had a 1200cc 4 cylinder motor, and the Vaughn was claimed to have a small V8...

I think the Abarth version of the Fiat 2300 (enlarged to 2400) was Tipo 223

Last edited by dretceterini; 06-22-2009 at 04:18 PM.
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post #70 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-22-2009, 04:49 PM
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Earl: You may want to contact the Fiat Register and see if they have any information that would help mapping the Fiat data to a specific date and/or event.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #71 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 03:46 AM
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Abarth 1600 spider N. 118S*011302

Just back from 5 days away from the internet. Had a personal inquiry from Earl Rausch that directed me to this thread. No great mystery here, but there is certainly some cause for confusion. Additional details would certainly be welcome!

The Fiat ID plate (Tipo 118G with 103G.004 engine) simply does not belong to the car. It is from a standard Fiat 1200 "spider" (cabriolet) of the roughly 1960-onwards time period. Haven't tried to date it yet based on the chassis number but it has nothing to do with the origins of this car. The ID plate may be a legacy of the time period when it was a stolen car and the Fiat's identity was perhaps used rather than the original "Abarth" (Fiat) identity ... for a time. It is probably time to remove it and place it with some other parts that are perhaps part of the car's history but not part of its original build. Unless, of course, all the paperwork with the car refers only to the identity given by the Fiat plate ... in which case it may be practical to keep it on the car for a time?

Edit: I am placing the following paragraph in italics as it turns out the type designation is actually "225".
The Abarth "Tipo 223" engine designation is new to me but is almost undoubtedly an "Abarth" variation of the Fiat-OSCA 1500 engine which was enlarged by Abarth to 1587cc in the Tipo 225 variation. The "Tipo 223" may have had similar modifications but was perhaps tuned differently ... or perhaps the "223" engine in this car was simply a tuned 1500 that was not enlarged? Some checking will probably reveal the significance ... if it was not simply a mistake done back in the day ...?

The 118S chassis number itself is part of a small run that was supplied by Fiat to Abarth and sits consecutively between 011301 and 011303, two other Abarth 1600 spider cars (coachwork not yet identified, but Allemano was the most common variety), one of which was first sold November, 1961 and the other was first sold July, 1961. These other two cars were first sold in Italy but this subject car appears not to have been sold in Italy so it may well have been sold new to Mexico? But, "1961" would seem to be a pretty good guess as to the year of build.

The rear of the car appears to be quite typical of Allemano. It is quite likely that the nose was modified at some point. The task is to determine "by whom and when"! If it is an Allemano body, there will almost certainly be some signs of the Allemano build number and some diligence should reveal the entire number. based on the probable time of origin I would guess that there will be four digits in all but it may be only three? Please let me know what you find.

At least one of the knock-off nuts is a Borrani. Haven't tried to identify the wheels themselves. They look as if they could be Borrani steel rims or perhaps Dunlop. The one that I looked at in one of the photos was not typical of common varieties of either Borrani or Dunlop. If the tires are removed, there may be some stampings in the drop-center area that will tell all?

Regarding the Vaughan V8 discussion: Albeit of no significance to this car, it was quite simply a fantasy that was promoted "in period" but which was never realised. The car displayed by Vaughan was always the Abarth "103" Ghia (bearing the 205 chassis number "104") and never became a "Vaughan" in other than a few photo captions and text references. And yes, there was a Simca that was bodied quite similarly. The design concept was inspired by some work that had been done by Virgil Exner but there is no indication he had a direct hand in the styling of these cars.

Good luck and Congratulations!

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

Last edited by iicarJohn; 08-04-2009 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Corrected data reference
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post #72 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 06:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by iicarJohn View Post
Just back from 5 days away from the internet. Had a personal inquiry from Earl Rausch that directed me to this thread. No great mystery here, but there is certainly some cause for confusion. Additional details would certainly be welcome!

The Fiat ID plate (Tipo 118G with 103G.004 engine) simply does not belong to the car. It is from a standard Fiat 1200 "spider" (cabriolet) of the roughly 1960-onwards time period. Haven't tried to date it yet based on the chassis number but it has nothing to do with the origins of this car. The ID plate may be a legacy of the time period when it was a stolen car and the Fiat's identity was perhaps used rather than the original "Abarth" (Fiat) identity ... for a time. It is probably time to remove it and place it with some other parts that are perhaps part of the car's history but not part of its original build. Unless, of course, all the paperwork with the car refers only to the identity given by the Fiat plate ... in which case it may be practical to keep it on the car for a time?

The Abarth "Tipo 223" engine designation is new to me but is almost undoubtedly an "Abarth" variation of the Fiat-OSCA 1500 engine which was enlarged by Abarth to 1587cc in the Tipo 225 variation. The "Tipo 223" may have had similar modifications but was perhaps tuned differently ... or perhaps the "223" engine in this car was simply a tuned 1500 that was not enlarged? Some checking will probably reveal the significance ... if it was not simply a mistake done back in the day ...?

The 118S chassis number itself is part of a small run that was supplied by Fiat to Abarth and sits consecutively between 011301 and 011303, two other Abarth 1600 spider cars (coachwork not yet identified, but Allemano was the most common variety), one of which was first sold November, 1961 and the other was first sold July, 1961. These other two cars were first sold in Italy but this subject car appears not to have been sold in Italy so it may well have been sold new to Mexico? But, "1961" would seem to be a pretty good guess as to the year of build.

The rear of the car appears to be quite typical of Allemano. It is quite likely that the nose was modified at some point. The task is to determine "by whom and when"! If it is an Allemano body, there will almost certainly be some signs of the Allemano build number and some diligence should reveal the entire number. based on the probable time of origin I would guess that there will be four digits in all but it may be only three? Please let me know what you find.

At least one of the knock-off nuts is a Borrani. Haven't tried to identify the wheels themselves. They look as if they could be Borrani steel rims or perhaps Dunlop. The one that I looked at in one of the photos was not typical of common varieties of either Borrani or Dunlop. If the tires are removed, there may be some stampings in the drop-center area that will tell all?

Regarding the Vaughan V8 discussion: Albeit of no significance to this car, it was quite simply a fantasy that was promoted "in period" but which was never realised. The car displayed by Vaughan was always the Abarth "103" Ghia (bearing the 205 chassis number "104") and never became a "Vaughan" in other than a few photo captions and text references. And yes, there was a Simca that was bodied quite similarly. The design concept was inspired by some work that had been done by Virgil Exner but there is no indication he had a direct hand in the styling of these cars.

Good luck and Congratulations!

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

Thanks John. The nose of this "thing" looks very "Ghia-esque" to me, but probably not by Ghia themselves.
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post #73 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 11:10 AM
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Conjecture, is it possible the car went to Mexico/So. America, to run in a PanAm event with a modified nose and the bigger Abarth engine?
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post #74 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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Here are 3 photos of an Abarth 1600 Allemano
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post #75 of 128 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks to everybody that has posted ! John you have given me much to think about !
I did receive an email with the correct engine information . Now what to do with the car, I would like to restore the car but it will be very expensive to restore it to it's past glory. Or sell the car and let somebody else do the restoration .
here is the email that I got
hi Earl,
> > The orginal engine is a Fiat Osca 1500 or 1600
> > engine.Build by the Maserati brothers ( Osca =
> > Maserati brothers ).Abarth has slightly modified
> > this engine and called it type 225.
> > Every Abarth engine has a number like
> > this.214 is a Fiat Abarth 850TC202 is
> > a Fiat 1000OTetc...
> > If you look at Abarth | Berni Motori - Home - Italiano select cars
> > and then twin cam engines.You will find a list of
> > engine numbers.Your number 225 is on the
> > list.
> > These engines are quite fast for the time these
> > cars are made in.It is a 4 cilinder 1600cc twin
> > cam engine.
> > Tomorrow at work i will have a look in my other
> > Abarth book and get you some more details.
> > Are you planning to restore the car?
> > Best regards, Vincent.

Anyway that's what I have so far. What would we do without the internet ?

Thanks again everybody
Earl
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