Rescue Me--Flaminia PF on Ebay - Page 8 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #106 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 05:18 AM
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The point remains this is a series production model--not analogous to a unique painting.
The implication being that it would be OK to re-color a Picasso print, but not a Picasso painting ?

Fortunately Dr. Simeone offers the appropriate prescriptions: Coachbuilt Press | The Stewardship of Historically Important Automobiles

But in this particular case, I think a tasteful and thoughtfully-chosen variation led to a more attractive car, that brought more money, that will encourage the preservation and appropriate restoration of more of its type. All good.

But that stray pipe wrench depicted in the tool kit still makes me cringe . . .
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post #107 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 08:30 AM
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The implication being that it would be OK to re-color a Picasso print, but not a Picasso painting ?

Fortunately Dr. Simeone offers the appropriate prescriptions: Coachbuilt Press | The Stewardship of Historically Important Automobiles

But in this particular case, I think a tasteful and thoughtfully-chosen variation led to a more attractive car, that brought more money, that will encourage the preservation and appropriate restoration of more of its type. All good.

But that stray pipe wrench depicted in the tool kit still makes me cringe . . .
If we're discussion his late work, as far as I'm concerned you can use most Picasso prints to wrap fish. But that's a different argument.

I'm not really going to get into an extended discussion on this question, but I deal professionally with preservation, restoration, and adaptive re-use of historic buildings; objects whose preservation issues and principles are far better developed than those for automobiles. I tend to favor originality in nearly all instances. But circumstances and context always factors into any serious discussion that doesn't reduce the question to religious fundamentalism; Paolo's "Taliban" comment wasn't far from the mark.

As for Fred Simeone, someone whose work I greatly esteem and with whom I've discussed these issues, he does indeed address this question. But if you read his excellent book, he doesn't suggest that a standard production Flaminia PF Coupé, with no special history, would rise to the level of "historical significance", thereby warranting strict conservation, or at least demanding perfectly correct original standard--particularly on a reversible modification like paint color (at least once the original paint is beyond conservation).

So, yes--standard series production cars are indeed different than one-off works of art. And as you correctly point out, we're discussing a particular situation in which it involves a "tasteful and thoughtfully-chosen" color change, and in which the results themselves may well help justify proper restorations of PF Coupés. Given all that, it's fine to argue questions of taste, but let's keep morality of a discussion of this particular example.

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF

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post #108 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 09:21 AM
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The point remains this is a series production model--not analogous to a unique painting.
Sorry Ed, but for the same reason you 'ld repaint your Fulvia in Pink?

The fact i always say that i'm a taleban (jocking with myself of course), implicates that we're talking about the originality here. To accept a wrong colour today (many said this car it's better painted in a two-tone scheme) it means to accept a different detail tomorrow (many would say: it's a contemporary detail!). Because a lack of memory, the distance from the brink is very short. What Don suggested about the Simeone's way of thinking is true, otherwise the FIVA would not have proposed the Turin chart in 2006, which was ratified by all the International organizations in Stuttgart last November. The main task for a collector is to preserve and to maintain a vintage car for the posterity as like as a masterpiece of art (1964 Venice chart) and its value doesn't make the difference.
Eventually, i'm surprised that so many auction houses, unlike how they operate in other sale departments, don't accept this assumption.

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post #109 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 01:56 PM
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Sorry Ed, but for the same reason you 'ld repaint your Fulvia in Pink?

The fact i always say that i'm a taleban (jocking with myself of course), implicates that we're talking about the originality here. To accept a wrong colour today (many said this car it's better painted in a two-tone scheme) it means to accept a different detail tomorrow (many would say: it's a contemporary detail!). Because a lack of memory, the distance from the brink is very short. What Don suggested about the Simeone's way of thinking is true, otherwise the FIVA would not have proposed the Turin chart in 2006, which was ratified by all the International organizations in Stuttgart last November. The main task for a collector is to preserve and to maintain a vintage car for the posterity as like as a masterpiece of art (1964 Venice chart) and its value doesn't make the difference.
Eventually, i'm surprised that so many auction houses, unlike how they operate in other sale departments, don't accept this assumption.
better ask for a snorkel
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post #110 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 09:56 PM
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What Don suggested about the Simeone's way of thinking is true, ...
Sorry, Paolo, but have you actually read the book, or spoken with Fred Simeone himself?

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The main task for a collector is to preserve and to maintain a vintage car for the posterity as like as a masterpiece of art .
I'm quite familiar with the Turin Charter, and it's absolutely not that absolute.

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF

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post #111 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 04:09 AM
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Unfortunately Ed, i didn't meet Simeone. I watched some Jay Leno's interview, i saw his website and i read what he wrote through that link.

I'm not here looking for recruits for my sect, nor i want to establish universal rules, i'm just warning anyone who reads this forum that the reality is often different from how it appears at the first sight. Who reads this forum sometimes seeks advice, sometimes answers, sometimes consensus. Too bad that all the passion that many of us put in writing on this forum, for many others it means a lot of money only. And this is the case of people trying to sell fake cars, we know who they are, trying to sell a car falsifying its history, we have seen enough , trying to sell replicas passing them off as originals, or people who say : " Hey guys look how beautiful my car is, i know i restored it not properly, but i never sell it ! " . Six months later you'll find the sale adv on the web or is picture on an auction catalogue (do you remember the yellow/black Siata?) And here is the problem : too much money revolves around this sector and being involved many people, some of them need to remain high the attention because the flow of money in circulation stay high. On other forums, such as Ferrarichat.com, far back someone said we are in front of a speculative bubble and i think that we don't need a "Madoff" in this area. I 'm not a collector, nor a seller, but only a poor historian of a brand that has now disappeared. I have no other chance than to continue my battle alone , that others like it or not. I really thank the one hundred or so people who asked for my advices (free) to restore their cars thus far.

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post #112 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 04:16 AM
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Unfortunately Ed, i didn't meet Simeone. I watched some Jay Leno's interview, i saw his website and i read what he wrote through that link.

I'm not here looking for recruits for my sect, nor i want to establish universal rules, i'm just warning anyone who reads this forum that the reality is often different from how it appears at the first sight. Who reads this forum sometimes seeks advice, sometimes answers, sometimes consensus. Too bad that all the passion that many of us put in writing on this forum, for many others it means a lot of money only. And this is the case of people trying to sell fake cars, we know who they are, trying to sell a car falsifying its history, we have seen enough , trying to sell replicas passing them off as originals, or people who say : " Hey guys look how beautiful my car is, i know i restored it not properly, but i never sell it ! " . Six months later you'll find the sale adv on the web or is picture on an auction catalogue (do you remember the yellow/black Siata?) And here is the problem : too much money revolves around this sector and being involved many people, some of them need to remain high the attention because the flow of money in circulation stay high. On other forums, such as Ferrarichat.com, far back someone said we are in front of a speculative bubble and i think that we don't need a "Madoff" in this area. I 'm not a collector, nor a seller, but only a poor historian of a brand that has now disappeared. I have no other chance than to continue my battle alone , that others like it or not.
I don't see the connection to a paint scheme on a Lancia coupe.... Isn't it how this started? So what made the SIATA so bogus? the color? I know the seller. He hasn't got a "Madoff" bone in his body.
I'll pass on your findings.

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post #113 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 04:26 AM
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Sorry if you didn't see it, your fault.
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post #114 of 114 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 11:51 AM
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... Too bad that all the passion that many of us put in writing on this forum, for many others it means a lot of money only. And this is the case of people trying to sell fake cars, we know who they are, trying to sell a car falsifying its history, we have seen enough , trying to sell replicas passing them off as originals, or people who say : " Hey guys look how beautiful my car is, i know i restored it not properly, but i never sell it ! " . ...
I've spent a lot of time dealing with fakes, including writing to auction houses, car magazines, and prospective buyers to let them know that one or another Lancia is not what it appears to be. Sometimes people listen; other times they do not. Either way, I have less than no patience for falsified history; I am an absolutist on this subject.

However, as Rick suggests, that is a very different issue than whether or not the owner of a far-less-than-rare car wants to paint it in non-original colors.

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF

Last edited by 1,6 HF; 01-25-2014 at 06:16 PM.
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