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post #1 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Sorting out my Fulvia

I'm creating this thread since it was beginning to hijack the "Are there any Lancia owner's out there?" thread.

So far my Fulvia has proven to be a wild ride. I've got some "handling" issues that make it, shall we say, less pleasant to drive than the Alfa.

We've established my red Koni's should go, which would soften up the ride. I stated my next issue would then be front wheel rub in hard cornering (which it already does in tight hairpins). I'm currently running 175/65 R14 tires, don't know what it should be running, but these look good on the wheels .
I realize that as Shaun pointed out in the other thread - the shocks don't change the wheel travel, but softer shocks will allow the wheels to travel themselves into the fender more than they already do! lol

Mind you - none of this is a factor in normal day to day driving, only when I take it on local rallies and wind the bugger up, do I notice these issues. The problem is that it begs to be driven hard - but when you try to do that, it starts feeling sketchy and loses a lot of the fun factor. I'm beginning to suspect the spinout I did on the Shamrock rally was more a result of the set up on the car than it was driver error (though I'm not afraid to take full blame), since the other two Fulvias on that tour were running at approximately the same speed, but handled the turn without any drama?

Awaiting any and all advice, thanks!
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Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan

Last edited by sfalfa; 09-15-2008 at 07:04 PM. Reason: grammar!
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post #2 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfalfa View Post
I'm creating this thread since it was beginning to hijack the "Are there any Lancia owner's out there?" thread.

So far my Fulvia has proven to be a wild ride. I've got some "handling" issues that make it, shall we say, less pleasant to drive than the Alfa.

We've established my red Koni's should go, which would soften up the ride. I stated my next issue would then be front wheel rub in hard cornering (which it already does in tight hairpins). I'm currently running 175/65 R14 tires, don't know what it should be running, but these look good on the wheels .
I realize that as Shaun pointed out in the other thread - the shocks don't change the wheel travel, but softer shocks will allow the wheels to travel themselves into the fender more than they already do! lol

Mind you - none of this is a factor in normal day to day driving, only when I take it on local rallies and wind the bugger up, do I notice these issues. The problem is that it begs to be driven hard - but when you try to do that, it starts feeling sketchy and loses a lot of the fun factor. I'm beginning to suspect the spinout I did on the Snowball rally was more a result of the set up on the car than it was driver error (though I'm not afraid to take full blame). Since the other two Fulvias on that tour running at approximately the same speed, handled the turn without any drama?

Awaiting any and all advise, thanks!
My tire size 185/70R14 & on the Montecarlo same, in some roads that Ed & I have taken I feel that my car do not sufferd bad roads, also I do not take a bitting my self. here is the look out of my I have the height rear & front, and a combination of all factors worn bushings, motor, trans, e.t.c.

Lancia Fulvia 1.2HF 1966. Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.2 w/1.6HF 1st 1966. Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE 1.3 1969. Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 1972. WWW.LALANCIA.COM

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post #3 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 03:14 PM
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This thread on "viva Lanca" has some thoughts on the shocks:

65 Fulvia

I have gone this way but as my car is still mid restoration I cannot comment on the success or otherwise.

Regards
Neil

1969 Lancia Fulvia Fanalone
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post #4 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 03:17 PM
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My tire size 185/70R14 & on the Montecarlo same, in some roads that Ed & I have taken I feel that my car do not sufferd bad roads, also I do not take a bitting my self. here is the look out of my I have the height rear & front, and a combination of all factors worn bushings, motor, trans, e.t.c.
here is how looks
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Lancia Fulvia 1.2HF 1966. Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.2 w/1.6HF 1st 1966. Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE 1.3 1969. Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 1972. WWW.LALANCIA.COM
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post #5 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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This thread on "viva Lanca" has some thoughts on the shocks:

65 Fulvia

I have gone this way but as my car is still mid restoration I cannot comment on the success or otherwise.

Regards
Neil
Thanks for this link - my head is now spinning....especially when my eyes fell on the last sentence of the thread: "All depends on what you use it for, but Fulvia windows crack when you rallye them."

So, that thread now has me worried about springs - how does one go about assessing the condition of the springs?? What defines "tired"? On a coil spring car - the tired springs would cause the car to sag somewhat, same is true of leaf springs??

I forgot to add that the car appears to have been put on the track at some point (I have photos of it from an issue of European Car from '93 where it appears to be on a local track), it's underside has been safety wired .

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #6 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sfalfa View Post

Since the other two Fulvias on that tour running at approximately the same speed, handled the turn without any drama?

Well, it's always possible that you were going faster than me! I didn't like the look of that fine layer of snow on the road surface.



Don't know about Shaun ... wasn't he following you?

Regarding the shocks, have you taken them off and tested them? I've heard tell of cases where shocks have frozen solid with 'exciting' effects on handling. Also, what brand of tires are you using, and what pressures?

Another thought: if at some stage the car has been set up for track work, I wonder if the rear anti-roll bar has been increased in size. This could cause a tendency to oversteer.

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post #7 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 06:29 PM
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Well, it's always possible that you were going faster than me! I didn't like the look of that fine layer of snow on the road surface.

Don't know about Shaun ... wasn't he following you?
...
Another thought: if at some stage the car has been set up for track work, I wonder if the rear anti-roll bar has been increased in size. This could cause a tendency to oversteer.

Peter
I was going at about the same speed, just trying to stay in the same zipcode as a certain pair of red Fulvias going up Mount Hamilton.

Jeff's spin occurred at the end of a blind right hander, and so I only witnessed the end result (Jeff in his car, facing me, with what I have to say was a very calm look on his face) after I came around the corner. At the time, I thought the spin was due to the wetness of the road.

If someone's had Jeff's car on the track in the past, there's no telling what sort of mischief they may have got up to. It may be worthwhile to do a basic inventory of "what's actually on the car". e.g., does it have the right number and lengths of leaves in the springs? As you, Peter, suggest: correct roll bar(s)? Does anything (e.g. the spring bushings) look like they may be binding? Or perished (e.g. a front roll bar mount)? And so forth.

May be worthwhile doing that before moving on to more expensive things like replacement shocks.

Regards
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1967 Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1.3
1962 Austin Healey 3000
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post #8 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PeterC View Post
Regarding the shocks, have you taken them off and tested them? I've heard tell of cases where shocks have frozen solid with 'exciting' effects on handling. Also, what brand of tires are you using, and what pressures?

Another thought: if at some stage the car has been set up for track work, I wonder if the rear anti-roll bar has been increased in size. This could cause a tendency to oversteer.

Peter
Haven't tested the shocks, I don't have jackstands anymore, so that may get thrown in with brake work in a few weeks time. If you push on any corner of the car, it does the normal single bounce-back, so I assume it not frozen solid.

Does anyone know what the stock rear bar should measure?

How about correct number of leafs (leaves??) in the springs front/rear?

Re: the infamous spin! It could have just been driver error or rain/sleet/ice issues, but I have a feeling we're on the right track with the shocks being too stiff, it fits precisely what I feel as being "off" when the car driving hard.
Does anyone here have any preference for shocks the de Carbon vs. Spax? The write up ncundy provided a link to, if I read correctly, seemed like the only difference was the Spax was externally adjustable?

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #9 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 07:37 PM
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Does anyone here have any preference for shocks the de Carbon vs. Spax? The write up ncundy provided a link to, if I read correctly, seemed like the only difference was the Spax was externally adjustable?
Both de Carbon and Spax (and Bilstein and Corte e Cosso, if they're still around) are monotube shocks with a gas chamber. AFAIK, the only real difference between de Carbon and Spax (other than manufacturing differences) it that Spax is externally adjustable without removing the shocks.

Oh, and 7 spring leaves @ the front transverse; 6 spring leaves @ each rear

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF

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post #10 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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I was going at about the same speed, just trying to stay in the same zipcode as a certain pair of red Fulvias going up Mount Hamilton.

Jeff's spin occurred at the end of a blind right hander, and so I only witnessed the end result (Jeff in his car, facing me, with what I have to say was a very calm look on his face) after I came around the corner. At the time, I thought the spin was due to the wetness of the road.

Well, I am happy to report that should you ever spin your Fulvia on a tight, twisty mountain road, with a rock wall on one side and a sharp dropoff on the other, the car is surprisingly easy to control. That's why I may have appeared so calm (trust me, I wasn't), I think I was more worried that you would come around the bend and broadside me!

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #11 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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More info while digging through pics, wheels are stamped 6J x 14 H28 (or H26 - I'll have to look at the actual wheel to be sure). What sizes are others running on their cars?
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Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #12 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-15-2008, 10:01 PM
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6J x 14 is a wide wheel for the standard S1 coupe (original was 4-1/2J x 14), and this could be contributing to the rubbing.

But what size are the tires themselves? The standard tire size is 145-14; if you're running 165/70-14, then the additional width could be contributing to a clearance problem. If you're running something larger than 165/70-14, then that's certainly contributing.

Are the tires showing rubbing on the sidewalls?

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF
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post #13 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 01:14 AM
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Regarding springs, you can do some basic checks by measuring the distance between the bump stops and the top wishbone (front) and centre spring clamp (rear). I can't remember the nominal gaps and weights of the top of my head but they are in the data book.

The springs do tire over time and in extremis they can break, this happened to me once in my saloon, but don't worry it had done over 200k miles and we were all packed up going camping so it was extremis !

If you feel the handling is a bit nervous or skittish, I would check that every thing is tight, particularly check the brace that clamps the front spring (located in the centre of the spring on the overthetop transom) - 4 bolts.

http://geocities.com/[email protected]/dscf0209.jpg

The same check on the rears (the springs are clamped on the bottom of the hub assembly) may also help.

http://geocities.com/[email protected]/dscf1545.jpg

I would be surprised if they show up much but as they are simple they will quickly eliminate potential causes and you never know. Ideally you would pre-load the car before checking the tightness of the fixings but I think in the first instance this would suffice.

Generally though a Fulvia should feel very "planted" and old bushes around the suspension will allow too much free movement, as Adan has already said. Unfortunately changing any other than roll-bar bushes is a reasonably involved task.

One more thing to check would be the front wheel alignment and toe in/out. There is a thread about that here:

65 Fulvia

I hope that helps abit, and I have to say the car looks superb

1969 Lancia Fulvia Fanalone
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post #14 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:19 AM
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Jeff,

Although it's a bit 'wet finger, stick in air', looking at the pictures (and remembering the car when it briefly lived down here) the stance looks right; I don't think your springs are too soft. So you may need/want to tweak your springs & shocks, but that's not where your tire problems are coming from.

It always helps actually to read the posts, and in going back and re-reading post #1, I see you say you're running 175/65-14 tires. From an aesthetic standpoint, they fill the wheel wells beautifully. But that's the problem; they fill the wheel wells too well. With 175/65-14s, I'd be amazed if you were not getting interference in tight cornering.

In other words, it's not that your suspension is too soft--it's that the tires are too wide, and you've got clearance problems at, or near full lock. Rubbing or interference due to width isn't going to be much affected by how hard or soft the shocks are. Of course, a width clearance problem will be a little worse if you get a lot of body roll in cornering, but this isn't a problem the Fulvia has even with softer shocks.

If 165/70-14s were available, you'd get less interference--these would probably cure the problem. But 165/70s don't actually seem to exist. And even if they did, 165s are too narrow for 6" rims--5.5" is generally the max. for 165s, particularly lower profile ones.

All this means that there's probably no good fix with tire size or suspension settings. The only thing I can think that may help is to find a good body shop that can roll the edges of your wheel arches, to make sure that there's as much clearance as possible, and no sharp edges. There's a good reason why the 1.6s that ran 6" rims had either plastic arch extensions (S1 Fanalones) or flared steel arches (S2 HF1600).

Beyond that, I think Neil may be right about the toe-out. Proper alignment, especially front toe-out (1mm more at the front of the rim than the back), is really critical to the handling.

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF

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post #15 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Okay - my mind is really spinning now...

Cross pollinating forums here for a second, and I might add - I'm aware of the Lancia Forums - I just haven't really gotten the hang of them - this forum is much more active so I prefer it.
From Viva-Lancia forum: Author: Paul de Raymond Leclercq Date: 12-31-05 12:48

As always, Huib has provided excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that I prefer to run the toe closer to parallel - say 0.5mm out, or even zero - i.e. parallel. Whilst this makes the car a little more "nervous" as Mr Van Wernink would say, I like the sharpness of response that it provides.

Best of luck

Paul

This whole toe in thing had also crossed my mind. The above description kinda fits the cars handling at present. The car is extremely sharp handling!

Would the increase toe-in of 1-3 mm tilt the tops of the front wheels inwards? Ed's post says "at the front of the rim than the back" - not sure I follow. I know the Fanalones have the front tires tilted inwards at the top (does that make sense? - it's still early...) and I was thinking a less drastic set up might help the tires clear the fenders.
I've also considered rolling the fenders - don't know who to go to for that operation!

Once upon a time - the when I believe the car may have seen track time - it was built as to look like an HF (though no engine mods to my knowledge - cam cover bolts still have traces of blue or yellow on them). It had wheel arches, HF seats, different carbs (Webers, I believe), sport steering wheel, and the gold colored HF styled wheels (Campys I believe as well). So it's possible the set up was monkeyed with and not reversed as the car was returned to it's S1 livery.

I'm clearly typing as I think now...

Anyhow - Shaun and I plan on car-swapping the next time we both have our cars together to compare and contrast setups.

Okay back to work - thanks everyone!

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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