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post #31 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:36 PM
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Well, that pretty much explains everything Jeff! Bumpy ride, twitchy handling, etc., etc.

Here's the data on bump stop clearance:

http://www.petercripps.com/Lancia/Bumpstop.jpg

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post #32 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:55 PM
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I'm not near any of my books and manuals, so I don't know what the factory spec is. Oops...too slow; Peter Cripps has pipped me again.

Anyway, I am near the car, and always vunerable to enticements away from work, so I took a snap of the driver's side bump stop on mine. The gap measures precisely the width of a brass Zippo lighter (or 1/2", for those unfamiliar with the zippo scale).

The difference from side to side on your car seems odd. Did both of the bump stops look about the same? Car's on level ground? No forgotten bags of concrete on one side of the backseat?

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post #33 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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The difference from side to side on your car seems odd. Did both of the bump stops look about the same? Car's on level ground? No forgotten bags of concrete on one side of the backseat?

Both bump stops look the same, conditionwise - but it was fairly dark and I didn't have the keys with me to pop the trunk and get a flashlight. Car is on level ground & pulled the dead body out of the car prior to the Melee.
Could it mean I've lost some bushings on one side rather than a spring issue?

Thanks Peter for the diagram - if I'm reading it right - one side appears to be off about 35mm!

Jeff B.

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post #34 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 05:50 PM
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Ok there we have it.
I couldnt believe Shauns pictures! From PeterC I see that we should have 30mm. I ran out to the garage, 26mm, not factory but more than some of you guys. The work will be in removing the spring (also some danger, search the viva-lancia website ) the rearcing it's self does not harm the wallet too much.
Shaun, my wheels are Cormodora 13x6
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post #35 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 06:31 PM
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Jeff, as NMMilano suggests, it's worth looking at the Viva-Lancia BB. There's an interesting discussion on springs and bump stops here:

65 Fulvia

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post #36 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:03 PM
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Off topic, but: nice looking car, NMMilano! On my crappy laptop display, it reads as black. Is that what it truly is, or very dark blue?

And I like the butterfly on the tire. I hear that there's a butterfly called the "Fulvia Checkerspot".

Last, I envy you your 13" rims. After the Melee I've been looking for new tires for my 14" rims, and availability of suitable sizes is pretty dismal. I've ended up ordering some Vredestein 165sr14s, which aren't ideal.

Regards

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1962 Austin Healey 3000
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post #37 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Shaun - are there more choices available for 13" wheels?? I was under the impression that they would be even more difficult than 14"?

Jeff B.

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post #38 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:19 PM
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Off topic, but: nice looking car, NMMilano! On my crappy laptop display, it reads as black. Is that what it truly is, or very dark blue?

And I like the butterfly on the tire. I hear that there's a butterfly called the "Fulvia Checkerspot".

Last, I envy you your 13" rims. After the Melee I've been looking for new tires for my 14" rims, and availability of suitable sizes is pretty dismal. I've ended up ordering some Vredestein 165sr14s, which aren't ideal.

Regards
Dont mean to hijack, Its dark blue, a repaint, but close to original I think.

Dont know much about butterflys, it was just there when I was taking pictures.

I think its getting difficult to find any high performance tire under 16" the Michellin are just good all season radials.

I hope to have my car out there for the next reunion, my Dad said I could use his garage in the bay area.

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post #39 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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Jeff, as NMMilano suggests, it's worth looking at the Viva-Lancia BB. There's an interesting discussion on springs and bump stops here:

65 Fulvia

Peter
Thanks Peter - another good (but daunting) link. Why can't I seem to find anything on that website! It's sounds a bit past my skill and tool level, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an indentured servant for my mechanic for the next few years.

Jeff B.

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post #40 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:44 PM
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Thanks Peter - another good (but daunting) link. Why can't I seem to find anything on that website! It's sounds a bit past my skill and tool level, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to be an indentured servant for my mechanic for the next few years.
sfalfa, are you looking at Viva Lancia. For Lancisti By Lancisti. Per Lancisti Da Lancisti ? not Lancia bb. I searched viva-lancia.com, go to forums, English, then Fulvia. I entered "spring" in the search and quikly found the post with pictures.

This web site is a great source of info from our friends in Europe.

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post #41 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:23 PM
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Thanks Ed for the great diagrams! Love that sort of stuff. I was aware of the "generic" differences between FWD/RWD, but I guess I'm having difficulty with my two test subjects.
What I know or have experienced:
The Alfetta has close to 50/50 weight distribution. It has mild understeer which can be easily modulated with the throttle. I've never spun one, but did get sideways going way to fast on gravel . If on tarmac, when pushing hard (I've run one on Sears Point Raceway - as a motorcyclist, I'm not big on going full-bore on public roads), you can get the rear to slide out ever so slightly into a semi-drift. Always brake prior to entering a turn, and throttle out of them and you will be grinning all day.

The Fulvia - haven't yet found the weight distribution, I'm sure you can tell me. Exhibits (IMO) oversteer (exacti-steer - might be a better term, as it goes exactly where you point it - exactly!) I'm obviously using my usual comfort zone of braking first, then throttling through a turn - which, seems to work just fine to a point. If I'm not careful though, the car feels like it's losing all grip simultaneously and is about to shoot off the road sideways (see diagram FWD #3 - only extrapolate the yellow footprint continuing straight off the road sideways).
So, I'm guessing it's perhaps my feathering of the throttle that needs working on? Is it okay form to be braking in the apex of a turn to bring in some understeer? That will definitely take some training to get used to I think
There are a couple of approaches with FWD. You can brake early and power through the turn, as you do now, but this will only work if you turn in early, use an early apex, and use the natural power-on understeer to take you back to the middle of the road. This will work better on sweeping turns, as you need enough speed to balance the understeer on the throttle. And I'll tell you that an early turn-in takes some getting used to.

The other techniques depend a lot on your comfort using all three pedals and/or using left-foot braking, and your level of comfort carrying braking farther into the corner than you do now. Carrying braking deeper into the corner obviously means downshifting while braking, which means heel-and-toe (or whatever you want to call that three-foot dance). The second you roll off the brake, the front end will unload and the tires will bite, which will rotate the car, and again let you balance the understeer on the throttle. This routine takes a lot of practice, and will probably make you a bit nervous the first couple of times you try.

And remember that FWD is very forgiving of mid-corner lift-off. In fact, if you really get crossed up mid-corner, lift off the throttle and the car will actually straighten itself out. Of course, this is incredibly counterintuitive if you're used to RWD.

You can also use left-foot braking, tapping the brake to set the suspension and stabilize the car turning into a corner, without lifting off the throttle. This is a classic rally technique pioneered by the Scandanavians in the '60s, and can be very useful in the wet or on loose surfaces. If overused, it will wear the brakes much faster, and on dry tarmac, it's very tough on the clutch. Personally, I only very rarely left-foot brake--only if I'm really pushing in the wet (which I don't do very much).

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Shaun - are there more choices available for 13" wheels?? I was under the impression that they would be even more difficult than 14"?
There aren't a lot of choices in either 13" or 14"; it all depends on the size you need. Interestingly, the choices are worse if you want 70-series than if you want 80-series. As always, money makes a big difference, too. WIthout any question, IMO, the best 80-series tires, ever, are Michelin XAS. XAS were standard on Fanalones, and were optional on all Fulvia Coupes. My '74 X1/9 came on XAS and they were the best tires that car ever wore. Michelin has actually re-issued the XAS in several sizes, including Shaun's 165/80-14. They're not cheap, but they should make 30k even with events, so they get amortized over several years (how's that for rationalization). ANd they're only in limited production, so they can be hard to find in the US; my set of five 185/80-13 XAS just arrived Monday from the UK; no one had that size in the US (shipping wasn't any more than CA sales tax would have been). 175/80-13 is the original Fanalone size, but Michelin didn't re-issue that size, so it was 185 or 165. With the rear springs back to stock, I'll be fine at the rear, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed about the front clearance.

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I had a heavily modified Fiat 128 that understeered at the limit but could be made to oversteer by lifting mid corner then it could be brought back to neutral by modulating the throttle, great fun...
Yep; that works, as noted above.

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My car has a similar stance to sfalfa's Fulvia. I think they came with some rake but also the front spring has probably sagged...
All S1 Coupes had a nose-down stance from the factory. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this may be more pronounced in the Fanalone, but it's very apparent in all of the Coupes (at least when they were new).

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post #42 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 06:50 AM
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[QUOTE=1,6 HF;63653

.



All S1 Coupes had a nose-down stance from the factory. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this may be more pronounced in the Fanalone, but it's very apparent in all of the Coupes (at least when they were new).[/QUOTE]

I like the stance, it give a nice agressive look, but the front cant be on the bumpstops or the suspension cannot do what it was designed for. The Fulvia bumpstops may be somewhat progressive due to the shape of the rubber but the Lancia engineers did not have todays technology available. Modern bump stops are made with a mix of sophisticated material so they are much more progressive, if the car hits the bumpstop you dont get that instant transition that sfala describes as "skittish".
sfalfa should determine if the problem is in the spring or the mount, once that is up to factory spec I suspect it will solve the handling issue and those beautiful wheels will work as well as the Konis. Koni makes an excellent product engineered for each application so they should be fine.

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post #43 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 07:48 AM
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I like the stance, it give a nice agressive look, but the front cant be on the bumpstops or the suspension cannot do what it was designed for...
Quite true. The fact that a nose-down stance is right doesn't mean that there couldn't also be a problem with the front spring or bushings.

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post #44 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Okay - well at the risk of sounding like a total boob... After thinking about what Shaun said about it being odd that only one side was sagging. I pulled the car out of my cramped, dark garage and lo and behold; the spring gap is fine on both sides!!

If I wasn't so happy - I'd be feeling incredibly stupid right about now...

So, I'm back to square one.

Jeff B.

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post #45 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 09:39 AM
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Okay - well at the risk of sounding like a total boob... After thinking about what Shaun said about it being odd that only one side was sagging. I pulled the car out of my cramped, dark garage and lo and behold; the spring gap is fine on both sides!!

If I wasn't so happy - I'd be feeling incredibly stupid right about now...

So, I'm back to square one.
Jeff, if your garage is anything like some of the ones I had while living in San Francisco, I'm not surprised. Most of mine were too narrow and dark to work in, and some showed definite evidence of living in a seismically active area. I had one out in the Bayview where a spill on an apparently level floor would follow an almost perfect "S" path as it flowed towards the street.

But this is good news, yes? No life- or wallet-threatening tussles with the front leaf spring needed at the moment.

Re Square One: Why not start with the cheap and easy data gathering stuff? Check to see how your Konis are set (try them at full soft, if they're not already set there). Put something benign and removable (masking tape, prussian blue, etc) on the inner fender wells and drive around to see where (or if) the tires are making contact with the bodywork. Put the car on jacks (I can loan you some if you need; let me know and I'll bring them to Andrew's run) and check the state of the spring bushings, the roll bar attachments, etc.

See you on Sunday!

Regards

Shaun Pond
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