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post #16 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:12 AM
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Jeff, adjusting toe doesn't affect the inwards tilt at the top. This tilt is camber, and on Fulvias is preset by A-arm geometery.

You adjust toe by rotating the threaded tie-rods that connect to each front wheel. This causes the wheels to point towards each other at the front (positive toe) or away from each other (negative toe). Think of pointing the toes on your feet towards each other.

Incidentally, I'd also be up for a car swap sometime ... although you and Shaun probably see each other more often on Melee and similar events.

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post #17 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sfalfa View Post
From Viva-Lancia forum: Author: Paul de Raymond Leclercq Date: 12-31-05 12:48

As always, Huib has provided excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that I prefer to run the toe closer to parallel - say 0.5mm out, or even zero - i.e. parallel. Whilst this makes the car a little more "nervous" as Mr Van Wernink would say, I like the sharpness of response that it provides.

Best of luck

Paul

This whole toe in thing had also crossed my mind. The above description kinda fits the cars handling at present. The car is extremely sharp handling!

Would the increase toe-in of 1-3 mm tilt the tops of the front wheels inwards? Ed's post says "at the front of the rim than the back" - not sure I follow. I know the Fanalones have the front tires tilted inwards at the top (does that make sense? - it's still early...) and I was thinking a less drastic set up might help the tires clear the fenders.
I've also considered rolling the fenders - don't know who to go to for that operation!
Toe in and toe out wouldn't tilt the tops of the wheels; that's camber.

Articles about camber, caster and toe in/out alignment are here:

Caster, Camber, Toe

Camber, Caster, Toe-in, Toe-out / Intrax Suspension

and include diagrams which may be helpful.

I don't think there is anything you can easily do regarding a Fulvia's camber and caster, short of sourcing HF bits or breaking out the welding equipment. But toe in/toe out is fairly easily adjustable.

This thread has inspired me to plan a crawl round my car some weekend to see how things are set (or not).

Regards

Shaun Pond
1967 Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1.3
1962 Austin Healey 3000
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post #18 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterC View Post
Incidentally, I'd also be up for a car swap sometime ... although you and Shaun probably see each other more often on Melee and similar events. Peter
Peter, I think the opportunity for the three of us to increase our Fulvias Driven scores by 200% (at least, in my case; I've never driven another) would be useful and great fun!

Shaun Pond
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post #19 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:36 PM
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Jeff,

Peter and Shaun are exactly right; camber and caster are not adjustable on a Fulvia. Standard Coupes run 2 degrees positive camber (which is to say that the tops of the tires lean outwards 2 degrees), while the 1.6HFs run 1 degree of negative camber (tops of the wheels lean inwards). But this is a function of the HFs having different (i.e., longer) lower A-arms. Caster is the same on both standard and HF, and it's not something you want to mess with anyway.

I can't say I agree with reducing the toe-out below factory settings. If you keep the steering box properly adjusted, you won't have an issue with steering response; I sure don't. And running less toe-out really compromises straight-line stability. It's an unnecessary trade-off to me, and I'll normally happily sacrifice stability for turn-in (which is one of the reasons I run 80-series tires, as original).

As with all such things, keep in mind that Lancia engineers didn't just phone it in; the cars were thoroughly engineered, and they came from the factory well set-up. Accordingly, most modifications will tend to make things worse, not better (which is one of the reasons I run 80-series tires, as original; am I repeating myself?).

Ed
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post #20 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Jeff,

As with all such things, keep in mind that Lancia engineers didn't just phone it in; the cars were thoroughly engineered, and they came from the factory well set-up. Accordingly, most modifications will tend to make things worse, not better (which is one of the reasons I run 80-series tires, as original; am I repeating myself?).
Thanks Ed, This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I began to suspect something was off. Everything I've heard about these cars is how fantastic they handle, and while it's pretty sharp as is - I can't drive it nearly as easily as I can my Alfa. I've been chalking it up to me being very green to the platform, and hoping in time I'd get the feel for it towards it's limit (I've been driving nothing but Alfettas for the past 16 years, so I'd expect to have to make some adjustments! ). So far, I'm finding myself loving it for day trips and tooling about the city, but feeling somewhat uneasy when I take it out and really try to flog it on longer rallies. I will say I have adapted to the high revs, and I rather enjoy 4500+ RPM in 2nd and 3rd gears. It just doesn't feel right ride-wise - I hope shocks will improve it - and if not - then I'll start to tackle the stuff Adan recommended (motor mounts/bushings etc.) to try and figure it out.
I also forgot to mention that the Sumitomo tires in the pictures, came with the car and are still on the car. I've been thinking they are not so good, as they really squeal in the twisties, but now I'm not so sure. They still have a lot of life in them, so that will be explored further down the road...

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #21 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sfalfa View Post
Thanks Ed, This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I began to suspect something was off. Everything I've heard about these cars is how fantastic they handle, and while it's pretty sharp as is - I can't drive it nearly as easily as I can my Alfa. I've been chalking it up to me being very green to the platform, and hoping in time I'd get the feel for it towards it's limit (I've been driving nothing but Alfettas for the past 16 years, so I'd expect to have to make some adjustments! ). So far, I'm finding myself loving it for day trips and tooling about the city, but feeling somewhat uneasy when I take it out and really try to flog it on longer rallies. I will say I have adapted to the high revs, and I rather enjoy 4500+ RPM in 2nd and 3rd gears. It just doesn't feel right ride-wise - I hope shocks will improve it - and if not - then I'll start to tackle the stuff Adan recommended (motor mounts/bushings etc.) to try and figure it out.
I also forgot to mention that the Sumitomo tires in the pictures, came with the car and are still on the car. I've been thinking they are not so good, as they really squeal in the twisties, but now I'm not so sure. They still have a lot of life in them, so that will be explored further down the road...
Now I love fulvia's but green?
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Lancia Fulvia 1.2HF 1966. Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.2 w/1.6HF 1st 1966. Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE 1.3 1969. Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 1972. WWW.LALANCIA.COM
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post #22 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sfalfa View Post
Thanks Ed, This is exactly what I was thinking, and why I began to suspect something was off. Everything I've heard about these cars is how fantastic they handle, and while it's pretty sharp as is - I can't drive it nearly as easily as I can my Alfa. I've been chalking it up to me being very green to the platform, and hoping in time I'd get the feel for it towards it's limit (I've been driving nothing but Alfettas for the past 16 years, so I'd expect to have to make some adjustments! ). So far, I'm finding myself loving it for day trips and tooling about the city, but feeling somewhat uneasy when I take it out and really try to flog it on longer rallies. I will say I have adapted to the high revs, and I rather enjoy 4500+ RPM in 2nd and 3rd gears. It just doesn't feel right ride-wise - I hope shocks will improve it - and if not - then I'll start to tackle the stuff Adan recommended (motor mounts/bushings etc.) to try and figure it out.
I also forgot to mention that the Sumitomo tires in the pictures, came with the car and are still on the car. I've been thinking they are not so good, as they really squeal in the twisties, but now I'm not so sure. They still have a lot of life in them, so that will be explored further down the road...
Jeff,

When you say you're 'green' with the platform, I think you've hit on a very important insight. I think your lack of experience with front wheel drive cars really is causing the discomfort you're feeling when you're pushing the Fulvia on rallies. Driving around town at slow speeds, there's no apparent difference in handling characteristics between FWD and RWD cars like the Alfetta. But as you approach their handling limits, understanding the differences in handling characteristics between FWD and RWD really becomes crucial.

After 30 years, on and off (3 Beta Coupes and 1 Honda CRX before the Fulvia), FWD is really intuitive for me, but when I first went from an X1/9 to a Beta Coupe, there was a real adjustment period in learning how to control weight transfer, suspension loading, and front tire loading. None of us understands these things intuitively; it takes practice and familiarity, but I'm also a big believer in understanding handling theory; here are a couple of diagrams of the differences in RWD and FWD cornering from De Vita's Il Rally (yeah, OK; it's in Italian, but the pictures are in English).

Rear Wheel Drive
Name:  Il Rally RWD.jpg
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Front Wheel Drive
Name:  Il Rally FWD.jpg
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blue = lift-off and/or braking ; orange = acceleration ; purple = opposite lock (RWD only)

In each case Diagram 2 shows wheel lock under braking. With RWD the car tends to rotate--same as when you simply lift off the throttle (Diagram 1), while with FWD the car tends to understeer straight. For FWD, what this means is that if you try to carry braking through the corner, you'll get understeer--to get the car to rotate through the corner you need to unload the front tires by releasing the brakes.

Diagram 3 shows another dramatic difference. Heavy acceleration = oversteer for RWD, but = understeer for FWD. This means that you need to use opposite lock under acceleration for RWD, while throttle--not steering--gets the same effect with FWD; turn in early and get on the gas to widen the radius.

Obviously, you aren't going to be executing many pendulum turns, even on events like the Melee, but it's a useful comparison of handling at the limit.

Ed
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post #23 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Ed for the great diagrams! Love that sort of stuff. I was aware of the "generic" differences between FWD/RWD, but I guess I'm having difficulty with my two test subjects.
What I know or have experienced:
The Alfetta has close to 50/50 weight distribution. It has mild understeer which can be easily modulated with the throttle. I've never spun one, but did get sideways going way to fast on gravel . If on tarmac, when pushing hard (I've run one on Sears Point Raceway - as a motorcyclist, I'm not big on going full-bore on public roads), you can get the rear to slide out ever so slightly into a semi-drift. Always brake prior to entering a turn, and throttle out of them and you will be grinning all day.

The Fulvia - haven't yet found the weight distribution, I'm sure you can tell me. Exhibits (IMO) oversteer (exacti-steer - might be a better term, as it goes exactly where you point it - exactly!) I'm obviously using my usual comfort zone of braking first, then throttling through a turn - which, seems to work just fine to a point. If I'm not careful though, the car feels like it's losing all grip simultaneously and is about to shoot off the road sideways (see diagram FWD #3 - only extrapolate the yellow footprint continuing straight off the road sideways).
So, I'm guessing it's perhaps my feathering of the throttle that needs working on? Is it okay form to be braking in the apex of a turn to bring in some understeer? That will definitely take some training to get used to I think :P

Of course - all of this is moot - until I get wheel arches rolled or something!

Jeff B.

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'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #24 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 12:02 PM
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I bought the Konis from Mike K, the black "classic" range. I have 175/70 Michellins and I like the way my Fulvia handles. I get good feedback from the tires and feel my car would understeer at the limit, but that could depend on a variatiy of factors. It would take some track time to explore the limits further. I had a heavily modified Fiat 128 that understeered at the limit but could be made to oversteer by lifting mid corner then it could be brought back to neutral by modulating the throttle, great fun.
The Alfetta has a very well balanced rear drive chassis that can really be steered with the throttle and is also 10 years newer than the Fulvia. I dont think you can compare the two.
My car has a similar stance to sfalfa's Fulvia. I think they came with some rake but also the front spring has probably sagged. I have not addressed this as Im not hitting the bumpstops. Hitting the bumpstops can have a dramatic effect on handling.
I have read some unfavorable reviews of the Sumitomos but have also seen them on some vintage formula cars.??
My car dosent seem to "set" well on transition from one corner to the next, after installing the rear shocks I see I need to replace all the rear suspension bushings, so thats next on the list.

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post #25 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 12:18 PM
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Looking at the picture again ( great looking car by the way) I wonder if the wheels have more to do with the tires rubbing than the tires themselves? Is the offset correct? I dont have a rubbing issues but even with my 175/70 my tire does not seem to be so close to the edge of the fender.

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post #26 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 01:02 PM
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Looking at the picture again ( great looking car by the way) I wonder if the wheels have more to do with the tires rubbing than the tires themselves? Is the offset correct? I dont have a rubbing issues but even with my 175/70 my tire does not seem to be so close to the edge of the fender.
I guess this thread has become a Fulvia 8 wonder of the world, to all it depends person driving style, I have had the furtune to have more then one Fulvia,and a Flavia. One thing I have learn that all are different from each other, my experience with all it has being that handleling it has to do with some many factors, is up to the person who drives the car to determine what he can do to improve the way it feels, now said that I love the car for what it is, and it continues to be a beutifull car to own.VIVA LANCIA

Lancia Fulvia 1.2HF 1966. Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.2 w/1.6HF 1st 1966. Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE 1.3 1969. Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 1972. WWW.LALANCIA.COM
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post #27 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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Looking at the picture again ( great looking car by the way) I wonder if the wheels have more to do with the tires rubbing than the tires themselves? Is the offset correct? I dont have a rubbing issues but even with my 175/70 my tire does not seem to be so close to the edge of the fender.
I guess this thread has become a Fulvia 8 wonder of the world, to all depends in the person driving style, I have had the furtune to have more then one Fulvia,and a Flavia. One thing I have learn that all are different from each other, my experience with all it has being that handleling it has to do with some many factors, is up to the person who drives the car to determine what he can do to improve the way it feels, now said that I love the car for what it is, and it continues to be a beutifull car to own.VIVA LANCIA

Lancia Fulvia 1.2HF 1966. Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.2 w/1.6HF 1st 1966. Lancia Fulvia Berlina GTE 1.3 1969. Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 1972. WWW.LALANCIA.COM
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post #28 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Looking at the picture again ( great looking car by the way) I wonder if the wheels have more to do with the tires rubbing than the tires themselves? Is the offset correct? I dont have a rubbing issues but even with my 175/70 my tire does not seem to be so close to the edge of the fender.
Thanks - I'm not sure what the offset should be, anyone know? However, I think your correct, as Ed mentioned earlier, the wheels are 6" wide - which is probably pushing past the desired limit.

I don't mean to be comparing the two cars - only trying to give insight into where I'm coming from in terms of my uncertainty with the Fulvia's handling towards the higher limits. I went into this fully aware that there would be vast differences between what I was used to driving, and what I was buying. I was surprised at how skittish the Fulvia feels after all that I've read about the steering/handling/ride qualities, and wondered if maybe something was amiss (either operator error or is something wrong with the car? Or both! )

Jeff B.

'69 Lancia Fulvia Rallye 1,3 S
gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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post #29 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 03:05 PM
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Thanks - I'm not sure what the offset should be, anyone know? However, I think your correct, as Ed mentioned earlier, the wheels are 6" wide - which is probably pushing past the desired limit.
I don't know what the offset is supposed to be, but there isn't all that much room inboard on the Fulvia to play with, at least in the front, so I suspect the offset "is what it is" and that Fulvia wheels this wide will necessarily protrude outboard a bit from the stock Series One fender.

Most of the Fulvias I've seen with wide wheels usually seem to have fender mods/extensions like the factory HFs.

NMMilano, what type, and how wide are the wheels you're running your 175/70s on?

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post #30 of 175 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ncundy View Post
Regarding springs, you can do some basic checks by measuring the distance between the bump stops and the top wishbone (front) and centre spring clamp (rear). I can't remember the nominal gaps and weights of the top of my head but they are in the data book.
Okay - so I was just at my garage where the car is and I took a little peek at the clearance of the front bump stops. Passenger side ~1cm, Driver side = zero (0mm, cm or any other unit of measure). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that's not how they left the factory, is it?

I feel my wallet emploding...

Jeff B.

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gone but not forgotten
'79 Alfetta Sprint Veloce/'77 Alfetta Sedan /'76 Alfetta Sedan/'75 Alfetta Sedan
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