Do you believe in "global warming?" - Page 168 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #2506 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 08:09 PM
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^ TLDR <shrug>
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post #2507 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 09:27 PM
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You've unwittingly stumbled into an interesting lesson in motivated reasoning.

Why did the Medieval scholastics attempt to prove there was a God? Well, the Medieval church depended on the acceptance of revealed truth. With most of the population uneducated and illiterate, they were dependent on authority figures to tell them what as true. This provided tremendous power to church leaders. However, there were a class of educated clergy that were learned by the standards of the day and had read the ancient Greeks and Romans enough to know there was a lot more to truth than what the elders said. But they knew they were in no position to challenge the authority of the church. But proving the existence of God? Well, the church elders could hardly argue with that as an academic pursuit- notwithstanding that it was an exercise in independent reason. It was also relatively safe because only the clergy and a few noblemen could read what they wrote anyways.

Fast forward to Copernicus. Likewise, he exercised independent reason and pursuit of knowledge outside the Church, but he wasn't clergy. Now, a much wider swath of the population could read given the expanding merchant class, and his ideas could potentially get traction in the broader population. Why did the church care though? There's not much in Christian theology that has anything to do with planetary movements. It wasn't so much what he said as the fact that he exercised independent reason from the Church on a matter that was not in service to the church. Thus, his investigations were forbidden. The Church, in a fit of motivated reasoning, called his ideas blasphemous- but it was only because the method of his ideas challenged the authority of the clergy.

As an aside, the Medieval Scholastics laid the foundation for the modern scientific method. Descartes heavily relied on Medieval philosophers like St Ansalem. Prior to writing the Cogito ("I think therefore I am") he started with a similar argument to the scholastics, and went beyond with powerful statement of self identity. But there was a problem: Descartes relied on what was later called "pure reason." He did not perform any observations to perform his conclusions and believed knowledge could be rationally derived. Scholars like Hume across the English Channel pointed out some of the significant limitations to rationalism and advocated empiricism (only knowledge based on observation). Kant effectively merged rationalism and empiricism and laid the foundation for the modern scientific method, which evolved in fits and starts over the 19th century (Kant wrote in the late 18th century). Without the scientific method, the internal combustion engine would have never been invented, and we'd be stuck at the level of discourse about climate change exhibited in this thread.

Now on today. In a vacuum, the fact that the earth is warming should be free of any value judgment. It's a fairly simple fact. But to accept AGW is a threat to certain power structures and political convictions- and that cannot stand. Thus, AGW deniers must invent reasons why it cannot be true. To be clear, it is good and healthy to challenge AGW, but it must be done with science, not with politics.

To answer your point above. The fact that the earth's climate has change over geologic time is well known to scientists and fully accounted for in climate change studies. It's important to understand, however, that the rate of change far exceeds any prior natural change absent those caused by calamity like meteor strikes. A great illustration (supported by published scientific studies) can be found here:

https://xkcd.com/1732/

Additionally, what you've done is answer science with anecdote and conjecture. Your idea of oceans absorbing C02 according to temperature might be an interesting hypothesis, but you need to present evidence that the hypothesis has been successfully tested to be persuasive.
I'm looking forward to your research on Svensmark and Shaviv.
As well as your eventual review of the solubility of gases in water.

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Last edited by Subtle; 03-28-2019 at 09:32 PM.
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post #2508 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 05:44 AM
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Nealric
I'll give you a hand.
Solubility of a gas in water is not, repeat not, an hypothesis.
Anyone who has taken science knows about:
Henry's Law.
Repeat Law.

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post #2509 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 06:59 AM
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No, your hypothesis is not that gas is soluable in water. Your hypothesis is that such soluability governs the C02 climate feedback loop.

I am waiting for you to link to actual peer reviewed science.

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post #2510 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 07:20 AM
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Still waiting

for a response as to which one of THESE commonly pushed theories has been proved by repeatable tests and not some computer model.
This is what the public is fed in order to restrict our freedoms and take our money.
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post #2511 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 07:26 AM
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I asked for peer reviewed research, you responded with a political cartoon and old magazine covers. You’ve confirmed my points.

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post #2512 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 08:45 AM
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We will be okay for a little while....
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post #2513 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 08:51 AM
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I actually linked to a chart a few posts ago illustrating that temperature changes over prior geologic periods pale in comparison to today’s. Things are changing much more rapidly.

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post #2514 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 09:42 AM
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So you got nuthing......

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post #2515 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 101/105guy View Post
So you got nuthing......
You've posted a political cartoon and magazine covers that misrepresent the state of climate change science. And you did so in response to my extensive posts lamenting politics taking over genuine scientific inquiry. Note that the political cartoon cites no sources and links to no peer reviewed research. There's no point in arguing against a straw man. However, I have posted links to peer reviewed research showing global warming consensus in the late 1970s. I also note that a review of the science in the mid-70s showed that there was a need for more research and no consensus.

It's very easy to debate an imaginary opponent, but you aren't accomplishing anything.
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post #2516 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 09:55 AM
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Nealric
Calm down.
It was me you asked for a "peer review" on Henry's Law.
I was so astounded that it took a while to recover.
It's been a Law since the early 1800s.
Anyone who has taken elementary chemistry or physics knows about Henry's Law.

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post #2517 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 10:29 AM
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Your hypothesis was evidently that Henry’s law explained the CO2 cycle as relates to climate change (or the lack thereof). Nobody is challenging that C02 is soluable in liquids or asking for peer reviewed research of that fact.

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post #2518 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 11:01 AM
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This is the next step in understanding that CO2 has had nothing to do with the actual history of climate change.
From glacials to interglacials.
A while ago, the astrophysicist Nir Shaviv confessed:
"A few years ago if you asked me I would tell you it's CO2. Why? Because just like everyone else in the public I listened to what the media had to say."
Then Shaviv looked into it and not only changed his mind about the CO2 story, but went on to contribute to the renaissance going on in real climate research. Cosmic rays influence the climate right out to a periodicity of some 23 million years.

In 2014 Shaviv was awarded the Einstein Fellowship at Princeton.

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post #2519 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 11:22 AM
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That’s great. Would you care to link to some of his published research?

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post #2520 of 2918 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Your hypothesis was evidently that Henry’s law explained the CO2 cycle as relates to climate change (or the lack thereof). Nobody is challenging that C02 is soluable in liquids or asking for peer reviewed research of that fact.
I may have posted this earlier I have (CRS) can't remember ****, anyway I had to biochemists in university arguing over the solubility coefficient, algae growth etc. They were arguing in PPM , not percentages, or partial pressure and if my 50+ year old memory serves me correctly the dispute was 3 decimal places to the right... just sayin..

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