Th Future of Our Cars and Hobby/Passion - Page 7 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 61Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #91 of 142 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 05:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newport Beach, CA and Melbourne, Aus.
Posts: 1,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz3litre View Post
The thing I don’t understand with all of this why there appears to be little talk about hydrogen powered internal combustion engined cars. It seems the obvious solution to me. There is a lot of money being put into fuel cell technology using hydrogen, so if they can store the gas for that safely in a vehicle, then why not put a tank in a petrol powered car? As far as I know it doesn’t take a lot of modification to make normal engines run on the stuff. Is this a case of engineers preferring to work on big, complicated designs in order to exercise their brain cells and get large grants and pay packets, rather than something more simple. Looking on the bright side, perhaps enterprising people will develop hydrogen conversions for older cars anyway and we can continue driving them without causing pollution. Hydrogen powered IC engines wouldn’t require dozens of expensive heavy metal batteries either, so they would be far better for the environment to my way of thinking.
Perhaps the whole hydrogen car thing is not about the vehicles themselves. Perhaps its about the cost of production and distribution combined with the defensive position of self interested industry players. Others are better placed to discuss cost of production but it seems to me that with distribution it's the petroleum industry that controls the networks needed to make hydrogen viable as an alternative fuel. They do not however control electricity generation and distribution. So straight away you have this industry inertia thing happening, as in "why would we invest billions of dollars in this hydrogen thing when we can continue to make profits by extracting oil and pumping gas for years to come".

Maybe the tipping point will come soon, where shareholders will demand a different view, and maybe in some markets that's closer than we are prepared to acknowledge. I mean, I spend a lot of time in SoCal where Tesla's and hybrid cars are super common - and the Tesla showroom nearby is always busy. Yet the Shell hydrogen filling station only 1 block from our house sits empty most of the day.

And by the way the custom car scene is alive and well, not just older cars but highly modified '17 Camaros and Mustangs. And Corolla's! It takes all sorts, as the hundreds of people who turn up each week for our Cars and Coffee type events demonstrate. Old cars, new cars, daily drivers, show cars, collectible cars, standard, modified, you name it and you'll see it. No, the car scene in SoCal at least is alive and well and isn't going anywhere in a hurry.

Alister
1973 105 GTV (Alfa #6 of 19 owned)
Aggie57 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 142 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 06:32 AM
Registered User
 
nealric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Houston
Posts: 993
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz3litre View Post
The thing I don’t understand with all of this why there appears to be little talk about hydrogen powered internal combustion engined cars. It seems the obvious solution to me. There is a lot of money being put into fuel cell technology using hydrogen, so if they can store the gas for that safely in a vehicle, then why not put a tank in a petrol powered car? As far as I know it doesn’t take a lot of modification to make normal engines run on the stuff. Is this a case of engineers preferring to work on big, complicated designs in order to exercise their brain cells and get large grants and pay packets, rather than something more simple. Looking on the bright side, perhaps enterprising people will develop hydrogen conversions for older cars anyway and we can continue driving them without causing pollution. Hydrogen powered IC engines wouldn’t require dozens of expensive heavy metal batteries either, so they would be far better for the environment to my way of thinking.
Hydrogen is a solution in search of a problem. When you think hydrogen, think "natural gas"- because commercial quantities of hydrogen are made with natural gas. But what's the point of the additional step? You can just run the car directly on natural gas, and there is already infrastructure to distribute natural gas. Being a much larger molecule, natural gas is much easier to store and transport, and does not require extremely high pressures to get acceptable energy density. The hydrogen fuel cell vehicle doesn't produce emissions from the tailpipe, but those emissions are simply moved upstream to the hydrogen plant. Besides, natural gas can be made to burn very, very clean.

But I still think electrics will be the future- not because they will be greener, but because they will quickly become superior from the end-user point of view. They will be cheaper, faster, quieter, and more reliable than their ICE counterparts. Range is on the cusp of being a non-issue as superfast chargers become available offering charges in little more time than it takes to fill a gas tank- with the added benefit of home charging. Electric has the advantage of being 100% energy-source agnostic- you can generate electricity out of almost anything. As for batteries, they are certainly an issue, but the materials are recyclable.

1986 Spider Veloce Turbo
nealric is offline  
post #93 of 142 (permalink) Old 11-23-2017, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,960
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
The proletariat electrics I know have very limited ranges. There will need to be a quantum leap to make them viable for long distance travel. We drive every year form Austin to LA and there is no civilization for long, long stretches. Certainly no methane or electric charging, and little propane. Electric in cities for mass commuting maybe but there will be self-driven cars just about the time taxpayers have been biked for light rail. ANd in keeping with the theme of the thread, what is the impact of all this on OUR OLD CARS?

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-24-2017 at 06:57 AM.
Anfanuts is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #94 of 142 (permalink) Old 11-24-2017, 06:29 AM
Registered User
 
ARwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Transplanted from Holland to The Armpit of New Jersey
Posts: 2,282
Garage
When we get self driving cars you can do this...

https://www.facebook.com/menstuff21p...2155239164497/

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”
Oo--V--oO There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness".
ARwrench is offline  
post #95 of 142 (permalink) Old 11-24-2017, 10:42 AM
Registered User
 
Bertiebloke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Godalming, Surrey, United Kingdom
Posts: 62
I believe that, bar an enthusiast minority, mine will be the last generation that teaches their kids to drive and that overall it'll be a good thing. So many benefits economically, socially, environmentally and safety-wise for society as identified elsewhere.

I know it appears self evident that robot cars won't be as safe but it's also self evident that the world is flat. Both views are wrong.

But I don't think it will adversely affect classic ownership or driving. It's always been an enthusiast hobby and I don't think that will stop. The prevalence of Do it Yourself home mechanics will decrease but the specialist workshops will fill this gap ( I think I see this already).

And there are benefits, these robot cards are designed to avoid accidents right? So if you're driving your classic with only an obsolete human brain and you cut in a queue they'll get out of your way. If you are 'enjoying' your classic the robots will behave completely predictably (unlike you) and be easier to avoid. If you spin on a wet roundabout they'll get out of your way. There will be no more inattentive idiots on the road.
Bertiebloke is offline  
post #96 of 142 (permalink) Old 11-24-2017, 01:14 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
oz3litre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Posts: 3,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertiebloke View Post
I And there are benefits, these robot cards are designed to avoid accidents right? So if you're driving your classic with only an obsolete human brain and you cut in a queue they'll get out of your way. If you are 'enjoying' your classic the robots will behave completely predictably (unlike you) and be easier to avoid. If you spin on a wet roundabout they'll get out of your way. There will be no more inattentive idiots on the road.
Good point!
Nakagtv likes this.

Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), son’s girlfiend’s car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (son’s new car).

Non Alfa
1988 Range Rover Classic Highline 3.9 V8

Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
oz3litre is offline  
post #97 of 142 (permalink) Old 11-26-2017, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,960
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Who Decides Who/What Dies

The programmers algorithms can't cover everything to avoid an accident, even when more perfected than driving under semis. What are the moral criteria in the programming to determine what/who dies? Do you know your algorithm? What's in YOUR chip? Will there be a sensitivity selector switch in object detection? Now it's just a chaotic messy outcome which can be honed to German-like perfection. Will Cars In The Future Decide Who Lives, Who Dies? | Daily Wire
Anfanuts is offline  
post #98 of 142 (permalink) Old 12-09-2017, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,960
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
So will analog in our cars save the day like vinyl and Marantz? This guy thinks so. https://journal.classiccars.com/2017...-car-industry/
Anfanuts is offline  
post #99 of 142 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 08:58 AM
Registered User
 
iachella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 2,078
1. A car shall not harm another car, nor through inaction, allow another car to come to harm.

2. A car must obey orders given it by its driver, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A car shall protect itself, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Stefano
Concord, CA
iachella [at] gmail [dot] com

Last edited by iachella; 12-13-2017 at 04:29 PM. Reason: correction
iachella is offline  
post #100 of 142 (permalink) Old 01-06-2018, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,960
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
From the linked article . . . . . "But Who needs a Tesla? The 1955 Alfa Romeo SS Speciale that proves the old ones are the best: Whilst outrageous acceleration and barely believable top speeds are great for never-ending games of one-upmanship, we all know where this is heading. At some point in the not-too-distant future, driving will be considered far too dangerous to be entrusted to people. We may be in denial about the machines taking over, but it is only a matter of time. At first it may seem worrying to allow an autonomous car to take your life in its electronic hands, but before long we will wonder how we ever entrusted such dangerous work to clumsy, sleepy-headed humans." Who was that pilot that landed the jet in the Hudson river and saved hundreds of folks? A machine?? Not autopilot.
Anfanuts is offline  
post #101 of 142 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 04:38 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 346
XXX

XXX

Last edited by mygtveloce; 02-22-2019 at 03:47 PM.
mygtveloce is offline  
post #102 of 142 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 07:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newport Beach, CA and Melbourne, Aus.
Posts: 1,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by mygtveloce View Post
Uber halts self-driving car tests after death - BBC News

"The female pedestrian was walking her bicycle across the street outside the crosswalk when she was struck"

"The vehicle was going 40 mph when it hit the pedestrian. There was no indication the car attempted to slow itself before the collision."
And on the same day how many human controlled cars were involved in fatal accidents? The cars and computers are not the weak point, the nuts behind the wheel are.

Alister
1973 105 GTV (Alfa #6 of 19 owned)
Aggie57 is offline  
post #103 of 142 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 08:50 PM
Registered User
 
Richard/SIA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: No. Nevada
Posts: 940
Garage
Not the first autonomous vehicle fatality and certainly not the last.
Everyone lamenting that "These old cars are SO DANGEROUS" may sign them over to me for your safety.
The older and more "Dangerous" the better!
You can have my steering wheel the same day you get my guns!
I've disposed of nearly every vehicle with even the simplest computer systems.
Slowly working to make every vehicle of my fleet pre-1980 technology.
Anfanuts likes this.

Twin-Cam Hemi, Webers, Headers, Overdrive, Disc brakes, and no emissions equipment to spoil it all. These are gonna be FUN rides!
Richard/SIA is offline  
post #104 of 142 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 12:04 AM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 11,293
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
I know I have said this before, but you guys and the fools that are pushing these autonomous cars are missing the point.

The greatest things about human beings is their ability to enjoy a sense of achievement. What autonomous cars, artificial intelligence and robots are doing is making the number of humans still able to achieve anything smaller. What it is doing is making it possible for only skilled and intelligent people to enjoy the benefit of achievement.

End result will be that heck maybe the number of road deaths will drop if we ever perfect autonomous cars (I don't believe this will happen though) but the number of deaths due to suicide will go up considerably meaning on balance more people will die per year. Brilliant not.

The unintelligent people of the world, and there are plenty of them out there and in my family, need to be able to work and feel they are contributing to their countries economy, otherwise why even bother living at all. We know how receiving the dole and doing close to nothing all day long does to people ... this is where we are heading, thanks to these fools.
Pete
Anfanuts likes this.

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PSk; 03-20-2018 at 12:10 AM.
PSk is offline  
post #105 of 142 (permalink) Old 03-20-2018, 02:25 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 346
XXX
Anfanuts likes this.

Last edited by mygtveloce; 02-22-2019 at 03:48 PM.
mygtveloce is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome