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post #76 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-27-2017, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 180OUT View Post
That said, I note that the Mercedes perspective appears to be widely accepted in Europe and elsewhere. It tends to reflect a fact---disturbing to me---that the kind of government control necessary to produce the kind of programmatic changes discussed sort of implies that there doesn't appear to be much room in that kind of society for the concepts of freedom and liberty we now take for granted. Somehow, I have a feeling that we will not go gentle into that good night.
I've always felt that Europeans went from feudal/monarchical control (bosses and peasants/serfs) to significant big-government socialist control with very little "humanist, age-of-reason" freedom in between. Despite the theory, communism is just an other fascist monarchy and social-democracy is not far behind. Europeans have been well groomed for continuing control for millennia under monarchs.

America was founded on a strong anti-monarchial values, and rabidly so as enshrined in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the founders and Federalist Papers warning about the growth of big government. No comment on the precarious place we are in now getting sucked increasingly quickly into the big government control maelstrom which is a major factor in the theme of this thread: "You vill like zem Comrade.".

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post #77 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-27-2017, 06:47 PM
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Another thing I was just thinking about is how ANNOYING self-driving cars will be. No reasonable company will engineer their cars to exceed the speed limit, speed up when approaching a light that will go red soon, make risky and fast turns etc. This will be INCREDIBLY MADDENING for those of us who already have issues waiting for the usual conservative slow drivers and long to stretch the legs of our Italian cars when we can. I also predict long lines of evenly spaced cars, making passing a complete impossibility on rural roads.
Oh they definitely will be annoying.

But they may also be quite easy to outwit. I've read several articles on problems with current autonomous cars being "bullied" by human drivers, who know they are programmed to always give way and push them all over the road ...
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post #78 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-27-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kuni123456 View Post
I do not worry about the fate of gasoline powered cars because no one can stop progress. You have to remember that gasoline powered cars pollute more than electric cars. The day will come when electric battery powered cars have longer range and can be recharged faster and then gasoline powered cars will start to vanish. I know that my Alfas will only probably be recycled and a few will be seen in car collections. I enjoy driving them as long as possible.
You forgot the sarcasm tag, or are misled by "Green" propagandist!

Electric is not NEARLY so "Clean/Green" as is touted, as several studies have confirmed.
Weather lead-acid or Lithium, batteries are energy, mineral-mining, heavy metal, and waste intensive to make and dispose of.
You will not have faster recharge than gasoline until slow capacitive discharge is perfected and that seems to a "Rainbows end" goal.

Without generous subsidies and selective memory electric fails miserably.
Note that as the Fed. subsidy limit is reached the socialist utopia states such as Kalifornia step in to supplant them, no matter the actual detriment to their citizens.

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post #79 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-27-2017, 08:07 PM
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Self-driving cars are going to be a total revolution for transportation. I can already hear the cries of "FREEDOM!" from people on here but as long as the car will take you anywhere you want to go the vast majority of people won't see their freedom restricted at all. And that will be the only sticking point.

Self driving cars communicating among themselves are going to virtually eliminate traffic jams, virtually eliminate crashes, shorten trip times dramatically, dramatically improve fuel efficiency across the "fleet", and dramatically reduce emissions. Highway capacity will be expanded several times, stoplights and signs will be eliminated completely - heck stopping at intersections at all will be eliminated, the cars will just interleave automagically.


Chris
I am so glad you are wrong about this!
If implemented the crashes when the system goes wonky would be on par with the fog related crashes around Sacramento, 150 or more at a time, but nationwide and in any weather!

What is really going to save our gasoline cars is twofold.
One, RICH people have invested LOADS of money into them, million dollar cars are not even newsworthy anymore.
Those folk are not going to casually allow their toys-investments to be taken from them, and they write the checks the pols depend on for election.
The other is real world physics, the "Electric Singularity" is being badly oversold.
Without subsidies, mandates, and just plain lying to the public electric-AI cars fail miserably.
Eventually the truth will come out, you can only suppress reality temporarily before folk inevitably begin to observe the truth for themselves.
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post #80 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-28-2017, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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I read yesterday where Chevy will no longer be producing the Volt after a couple of years, like 2018. Kind of counter to Euro car makers vision cited above planning to go all electric. Still the bad boys here driving that Hot . . . Rod . . Lincoln.

But then they only have coal and nuclear resources/energy and imported oil/gas from unreliable places for the most part. Saw a cool Norwegian film on Netflix wherein the premise was that Norway was going to stop oil/gas production from their sector of the North Sea allowing prices to skyrocket for environmental reasons. Europe invaded them to keep the energy flowing. Meanwhile here in the US has hundreds of years of fossil fuel with more tertiary recovery and fracking. Perhaps where you sit (geographically) is where you "stand" on fossil fuel and it has less to do wiht envirnmentalism? If you looked at that Shell press release linked above it really does foreshadow where Europe energy is going; when fossil fuel companies say they are getting out of their business. I also noticed them making a lot of business divestitures in regional areas, typically 3rd world hot spots and all NoAm tar sands.
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post #81 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-29-2017, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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And, Ta Da, In WSJ Thur.27 July: "U.K. to Ban Sale of Diesel, Gasoline Vehicles by 2040: Joining European push, UK sees internal-combustion engines banned by 2040." Quotes Toyota sayd similar by 2050. "Volkswagen AG , Honda Motor Co. and Daimler AG are among major car companies signaling big commitments to replace a sizable portion of their internal combustion engines with batteries or fuel cells in coming decades." Notably some critics say this is not fast enough.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-to-...040-1501062680 - Link may not work if you do not subscribe.

Four vectors working against dino cars, not mutually exclusive:
- Social/Cultural
- Political/Regulatory/Legislative
- Technological
- Economic

Where will old cars fit into the new landscape? Relegated to closed course use if at all?

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post #82 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 06:39 AM
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I read the article. It doesn't appear illogical to me. Realize there are fewer 1920s and 1930s vintage cars running around then there were 30 years ago. As generations pass on, the memory of certain age autos goes with them. There is no longer a relevance to the heritage of the car. This lead to "chopping cars" in the 1950s and 60s to create more current expressions for the older unwanted vehicles. Today, people can Uber a car and do most everyday needs without the Insurance costs, Storage costs, Maintenance costs, and space to store the cars. It is a far simpler lifestyle. I do prefer mechanical controlled vehicles to computer controlled ones. I don't know how I would repair/tune a 20 year out of date computer controller. Adjusting a Spica or Carb is relatively simple. Replacing a metal thermostat is likewise.

Good luck when today's cars become vintage.
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post #83 of 142 (permalink) Old 07-30-2017, 08:07 AM
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As generations pass on, the memory of certain age autos goes with them. There is no longer a relevance to the heritage of the car. This lead to "chopping cars" in the 1950s and 60s to create more current expressions for the older unwanted vehicles.

Well, not quite. There are good analog examples that how subsequent generations embrace seemingly abstract and culturally isolated ideas. And we don't have to look very far. On Youtube last night I was listening to a wonderful performance of Baroque music by S.L. Weiss, a contemporary of Bach who mainly composed for lute, performed on a theorbo---an bulky lute-like instrument with a quite long neck supporting sympathetic vibrating bass strings. You'd think that with the easy portability of guitars and the even easier ability to synthesize a convincing lute or theorbo sound that we'd have long ago dispensed with antique old instruments that are hard to tune and equally hard to carry around. But, in fact, early music performed on period instruments is enjoyed around the world precisely because it is performed that way.

People like the originality and understand the esthetic differences between synthesized sound and the real thing. Similarly, I like to play classical guitar. Steel-string and amplified guitar is much louder, generally a good bit cheaper and easier to obtain---concert quality classical guitars (to say nothing of lutes and theorbos) have to be made by hand and are expensive---but they just don't sound the same. It's the esthetic difference that counts with the result that you can easily find 20-somethings waxing lyrical about the tonal nunances of a Herman Hauser guitar versus a Miguel Rodriguez guitar in the exact same way that we can go on and on about the subtle differences between driving a GTV and a Giulia Super. But, then, there's less chance of a performance of lute music being banned because it isn't "sustainable".

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post #84 of 142 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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One person's view - The War on Cars. https://www.prageru.com/courses/poli...ience/war-cars

I don't personally much care about electric or self driving cars on way or the other as long as they rise or fall on their own free-market merits and not crony subsidies. They may actually have some advantages in urban areas. I highly doubt that is the case in the vast rural areas of America. They look superior to a proliferation of light rail which can only operate on specified paths unless coming into urban areas from airports.

I'd just like to have equal access to byways by the usual control freak suspects for dino cars, but I suspect that will be another uphill battle given the inherent nature of control freaks. "Live and let live" is NOT their creed; "my way or off the highway" is.
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post #85 of 142 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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Notwithstanding their toxic disposal later. It must be so nice to be ignorant.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng--Earth.html
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post #86 of 142 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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More.
https://www.economist.com/news/leade...na%2F54751%2Fn

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post #87 of 142 (permalink) Old 09-15-2017, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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Noted a related thread popped up on autonomous cars which is intended to be included here as an effect on old car use and market. Tick, tick, tick . . .

"Autonomous driving technology is about to completely upend the global automotive industry, which shipped 73.9 million vehicles in 2015. That represents a more than $2 trillion market. And that is just the beginning."

Their view of the impacts - all positive - starts about halfway down. Yatti, yatti, yatti. Someone posted these benefits here a while back.

=====>> This: "With such a strong tailwind, it is likely that children born in the next 10 years will never need to learn to drive a car." -- who will drive our cars???

https://moneywise411.com/new-automot...gy/?ppc=743242

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post #88 of 142 (permalink) Old 09-17-2017, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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Comment offline from a friend who skimmed the thread, he said I could publish:

"Rich people still ride horses and rich people will continue to drive/race cars. Though much more committed to mass transit than we are in the States, the Europeans continue their passion for car racing, probably to a greater degree than we do. I still think fully automated self-driving cars, on our current street formats will implode thanks to poor quality control, hacking and terrorism. Just look at one item, the airbag. How many thousands of subsystems are there on the proposed self-drivers, subject to poor quality and hacking!!! It scares the **** out of me!"

The concern here is for old cars, and so presumably high-end cars valued will be kept/collected but for what? Closed course racing? Trailered concourses? Or museums. And this is leaving the middle-priced and our more pedestrian low-end sportscars out in the cold. And then the issue of maintenance, parts, gas and then ultimately road access. He went on to say verbally that the rich can afford scarcer gas or higher insurance and race course fees. Not so much for the lower-middle of the food chain.
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post #89 of 142 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Article in Hemmings daily online about a study recommending possible easing of vintage car use in certain banned Euro cities. "Study recommends European countries exempt historic vehicles from car bans"

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/1...comments-block

In particular, read the comments. It appears to be a Trojan Horse for upscale cars and not modified cars, particularly those not meeting TUV, etc. originality requirements. As well as kit cars.

One such: "This is a fig leaf. FIVA represents the wealthy car owner segment of the hobby, not the unwashed masses. Re-read the article, it proposes to exempt only those cars which are “historically preserved and maintained in its original state.” So no ’32 Coupes with a 350/350. No low-rider Impalas. No BRE 510’s with Spook spoilers. No Shelby clones. Are you starting to get this? This is not a new stance by FIVA. And the fig leaf for this over here in the USA is the goofy government list of “National Vehicles” of importance. So they pat us on the head and murmur, “It’ll be fine” while plotting to take away mobility for owners of modded old cars. Owners of a pukka Cobra worth $6M, you’re fine. Owners of a garage-built $35K clone, you’re S.O.L."

What happens there sprads to California and then starts to spread elsewhere. Let's hope this stays there.

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post #90 of 142 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 08:20 PM
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The thing I don’t understand with all of this why there appears to be little talk about hydrogen powered internal combustion engined cars. It seems the obvious solution to me. There is a lot of money being put into fuel cell technology using hydrogen, so if they can store the gas for that safely in a vehicle, then why not put a tank in a petrol powered car? As far as I know it doesn’t take a lot of modification to make normal engines run on the stuff. Is this a case of engineers preferring to work on big, complicated designs in order to exercise their brain cells and get large grants and pay packets, rather than something more simple. Looking on the bright side, perhaps enterprising people will develop hydrogen conversions for older cars anyway and we can continue driving them without causing pollution. Hydrogen powered IC engines wouldn’t require dozens of expensive heavy metal batteries either, so they would be far better for the environment to my way of thinking.
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Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), son’s girlfiend’s car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (son’s new car).

Non Alfa
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Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).

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