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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-03-2019 09:55 PM
Steve105 It is great this thread was moved, hopefully more people will read it!
01-22-2019 12:07 PM
davbert
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Interesting that IRS apparently resolved understeer issues.

I guess this has to do with lowering the roll centre, or something?, because it surely cannot be due to having less traction (i.e. understeer can be caused by the rear of the car pushing the front).
Pete
pete you are confusing me once again... :-)

all things being equal it would probably increase grip at the rear and cause even more understeer. i reckon they would be chasing the front end again once they put in the IRS much like the sliding block. those goofy sliding blocks gtams three wheel around the corner with the unloaded inside front a foot of the ground
01-22-2019 04:10 AM
ARGTAReg No photos of IRS GT (GTA) version, alas. (Or might be that my sources are without similar docs). I have asked Tabucchi for more details few years ago, but there were not photos or blueprints in his archive, though he was sure that there must have been saved and preserved documents about it in Arese Centro Documentazione. It was Autodelta’s archive that was lost in transfer of the factory from Settimo Milanese to Senago. This one, could be nice question for Marco Fazio, (fine expert from Centro Documentazione), or Elvira Ruoco that was there to direct that service in the previous, past years. I will ask some of my friends that are (or were) in relation with factory if there could be some photo, but sincerely, I doubt that. For PSk, the position of RC was one of factors in calculation of the transfer of lateral loads during cornering (remember behaviour of GTAs with and without DRC), so it was contributing reason certainly, and also the statement of Max Pershyn has its logic as in development of Alfetta, the sum of previous experiences was considered, though Bonini speaks about similar to TZ suspension on the car in question. Here is Bonini’s statement (in Italian as it would be enterprise for me to translate it, so use Google)

Che ricordi ha della T.L Super e della GTA?

La T.I. Super nacque molto vicina alia TZ e, nello stesso momento stava prendendo corpo anche il progetto GTA. Ho dei ricordi molto belli: L’ingegner Satta faceva programmi con cinque anni di anticipo e si lavorava con molta soddisfazione. Riusciva a prevedere tutto, e questo dava molta motivazione ai suoi collaboratori che si sentivano rassicurati dalla presenza di un personaggio di così grande valore.
Quali furono i motivi che portarono al progetto GTA e chi voile questa vettura?
La vettura fu voluta dal dottor Luraghi, di concerto con l’ingegner Satta. Tutto ciò che si sviluppò negli anni seguenti era già ben delineato nella mente del direttore della progettazione all’inizio degli anni Sessanta. Ricordo che la Germania avrebbe gradito una Giulia 2 litri, da contrapporre alia BMW, che effettivamente fu anche provata. Satta però era molto contento del motore 1600 della TZ preparato da Conrero, che stava dando ottimi risultati nelle prime prove al banco, e non voleva uscire da quella cilindrata. Fupertanto deciso di fare una vettura da 1600 cm3 ma con le prestazioni di una 2000. In quel momento di sommesso rilancio dell’attività agonistica dell’AIfa, l’ingegner Satta amava impegnare la Casa con vetture valide nel
maggior numero di categoriepossibile. Avevamo infatti la TZ, decisamente da corsa, per il Gran Turismo, la T.L Super per il Turismo e la GTA che avrebbe potuto rappresentare una valida alternativa e ci avrebbe consentito di essere vincenti nella categoria Turismo, per la quale c’erano tutte le premesse di un grande rilancio.

Dove furono effettuati sviluppo e messa a punto della GTA?

Al Servizio Esperienze. Nel 1965 consegnammo all’Autodelta la vettura pronta e
preparata al primo stadio di elaborazione, senza cioè tutti quegli accorgimenti e modifiche che l’Autodelta sviluppò successivamente. Nelle prove di velocita a Balocco avevo raggiunto i 224 km/h.

Ha qualche ricordo a proposito di una GTA con quattro ruote indipendenti?

Ricordo benissimo di averla provata al Mugello, non all'autodromo, che ancora non c’era, ma sul percorso stradale. Era una vettura eccezionale: tanto per fare un esempio, avevamo messo a punto una tabella che conteneva trenta diverse
regolazioni di assetto, che si potevano variare in brevissimo tempo. Facemmo anche delle prove comparative con la 2000 Sportiva, che aveva il ponte posteriore tipo De Dion, e la GTA, che per la verità era una GT di acciaio ma con tutto il materiale della GTA, risultò nettamente superiore, il ponte posteriore era ancorato alia scocca,
i semiassi oscillanti e le sospensioni erano costituite da quadrilateri superiori e inferiori, un concetto abbastanza vicino a quello della TZ.

Perché provaste la vettura proprio al Mugello?

Era un tracciato completo, quasi unico. C’erano tutte le situazioni: dal veloce al lento,
dalla salita alia discesa, dal fondo sconnesso al fondo liscio.Quando una vettura veniva messa a punto al Mugello, era veramente valida. Li provammo a lungo anche la GTA di serie con ponte rigido.
Il “campo base” era a Firenzuola, presso un'officina autorizzata Alfa Romeo, e ci passavamo tutta la settimana. Tuttavia, il ponte a ruote indipendenti restò alio stadio di progetto: evidentemente costava troppo per poter avere seguito nella produzione.

Le risulta che dovesse equipaggiare la GTA?

Certamente. Avrebbe dovuto essere omologato e sarebbe stato eccezionalmente valido. Forse avremmo anche eliminato il tipico effetto sottosterzante che, nelle curve a raggio stretto, faceva alzare la ruota anteriore interna. Non riuscimmo mai ad eliminare questo inconveniente: nelle curve, quindi, si doveva alleggerire I ‘acceleratore; si perdeva tempo, ma se ne sarebbe perso ancora di più spingendo e facendo accentuare il difetto.
01-21-2019 05:47 PM
Steve105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Italian View Post
Darn Guys. I'm almost afraid to ask if Carbon Fibre body panels were homologated . (Ha! Ha!) You all may think I'm a "Trouble Causer". Now let's see; Are Alfaholic's aluminum body panels viable replacement panels for my "missing" Autodelta homologated panels?
This reminds me of the movie 'a few good men'
You want answers?
LTJG Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them.
Col Jessep: You want answers?!
LTJG Kaffee: I want the truth!
Col Jessep: You can't handle the truth!!!
01-21-2019 05:06 PM
Max Pershyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Interesting that IRS apparently resolved understeer issues.

I guess this has to do with lowering the roll centre, or something?, because it surely cannot be due to having less traction (i.e. understeer can be caused by the rear of the car pushing the front).
Pete
I think it was done to find the right solution for Alfetta (multi link rear suspension, de dion and live axle)
01-21-2019 04:35 PM
Little Italian Darn Guys. I'm almost afraid to ask if Carbon Fibre body panels were homologated . (Ha! Ha!) You all may think I'm a "Trouble Causer". Now let's see; Are Alfaholic's aluminum body panels viable replacement panels for my "missing" Autodelta homologated panels?
01-20-2019 02:11 PM
PSk Interesting that IRS apparently resolved understeer issues.

I guess this has to do with lowering the roll centre, or something?, because it surely cannot be due to having less traction (i.e. understeer can be caused by the rear of the car pushing the front).
Pete
01-20-2019 09:15 AM
davbert
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Davbert, your dream car really existed
Strange note this one about GTA with independent rear suspension. As a matter of facts, similar car was tested by Servizio Esperienze Speciali in ’66, but it was not turbocharged engine and assertion about its power and weight are not true either. The example produced entirely at Servizio Esperienze, without involvement of Autodelta, was supplied with TZ like rear suspension and was developed over steel body GT but with all other GTA components. It was intensively tested at Mugello by Bruno Bonini that left detailed attestation about that car, described in superlative words. It was the price too high for re-elaboration of 105.32 rear suspension project, to stop its further development. Bonini described the car’s behaviour as absolutely neutral without understeering tendency that was present in other GT models. My only objection is that it is not likely that any mortal except Bonini ever tried that car, left in disuse and without engine in old Portello deposit.
any photos of this IRS on the 105?

its not surprising they didnt offer it even it race form. the original mustang had IRS also. in 63 they built 3 evaluation cars before it got costed out for a solid axle.
01-20-2019 05:35 AM
Steve105
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsharp View Post
Hi Steve,
You could also draw the same improbable conclusions for almost any model based on homologated racing options and if, buts & maybes. I doubt that it is any sort of important insight for 1750 owners, other than there was a huge list of race options that could fit across just about any Giulia model platform.
If you really want an all alloy 1750 GTV, just put all your collected alloy body parts onto one of your many cars. It would be a great special project & perhaps you could top it off with your GTA cylinder head & close ratio gearbox from your other white car. That would make it quite something. But alas, not something that might have been coming off the end of the Arese production line back in the day. It almost sounds like the sort of argument of someone who might be trying to convince Historic Racing Officials or classic car market of some unicorn model
Vince.
Hi Vince,
What?
Regards Steve
01-18-2019 02:51 PM
ARGTAReg
Quote:
Originally Posted by davbert View Post
what a minute, stop press!

you are telling me it had an IRS in the back off a TZ2? i would luv to see this any why hasnt any tried to reproduce a portion of this car sans the complicated steampunk driven superchargers?

sounds like a dream 105 to me...

could it be possible the sliding block was mistaken for IRS type links by the reporter?

Davbert, your dream car really existed
Strange note this one about GTA with independent rear suspension. As a matter of facts, similar car was tested by Servizio Esperienze Speciali in ’66, but it was not turbocharged engine and assertion about its power and weight are not true either. The example produced entirely at Servizio Esperienze, without involvement of Autodelta, was supplied with TZ like rear suspension and was developed over steel body GT but with all other GTA components. It was intensively tested at Mugello by Bruno Bonini that left detailed attestation about that car, described in superlative words. It was the price too high for re-elaboration of 105.32 rear suspension project, to stop its further development. Bonini described the car’s behaviour as absolutely neutral without understeering tendency that was present in other GT models. My only objection is that it is not likely that any mortal except Bonini ever tried that car, left in disuse and without engine in old Portello deposit.
01-18-2019 11:36 AM
davbert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
I do not know if it is true or not, but I read that in 1968 s/n 613997 got 1905cc engine with two hydraulic chargers, dry sump, testa stretta head and monosleeve block. It had 315-325 HP at 7800rpm. It also received multilink suspension from TZ2. The weight of the car - 730 kg, max speed 270 km/h

The source was here. The original text is gone but I have a copy
Sport / Competition - The Alfa Romeo Autodelta GTA
what a minute, stop press!

you are telling me it had an IRS in the back off a TZ2? i would luv to see this any why hasnt any tried to reproduce a portion of this car sans the complicated steampunk driven superchargers?

sounds like a dream 105 to me...

could it be possible the sliding block was mistaken for IRS type links by the reporter?
01-17-2019 03:43 PM
vsharp To remind everyone of where this started, it was the first post by Ladislas asking about alloy body parts & other GTA components for a personal custom build he is doing on a smooth nose 1300 GTJunior with any or as many special parts as he can get. See some of his other postings.
He says that his car has never had any racing history of any kind & prior to the start of custom build is just a stock standard 1300GTJnr....then the thread expanded into improbable speculation (not by Lasidlas). As you said PSK, a little bit of information....
I helped Ladsilas out with some old genuine GTA doors for his project.
I'm sure it will be a very nice personal statement & an exciting car to drive when it is finished.
I think this thread has just about done now. I do wonder why it is even in GTA/GTAm section anyway?
Cheers,
Vince.
01-17-2019 03:41 PM
Max Pershyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
I already said a few times here to get clarification for the discussion we could ask FIA. Open discussions are just that open discussions. I have presented original FIA documents to make my argument. I will leave it others to do their own research and ask their own questions to FIA.
Cheers Steve
Steve, FIA Appendix J provides to a manufacturer the info how NOT to build racing cars on the production line. Appendix J does not prohibit a maximum quantities or build a racing car on the main production plant.

Your logic is correct, Alfa Romeo could make 1000+ light weighted GTV cars in Arese/Autodelta. The problem is it never happened, because it is just stupid wasting of money.
01-17-2019 02:21 PM
Steve105 I already said a few times here to get clarification for the discussion we could ask FIA. Open discussions are just that open discussions. I have presented original FIA documents to make my argument. I will leave it others to do their own research and ask their own questions to FIA.
Cheers Steve
01-17-2019 02:05 PM
PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsharp View Post
It almost sounds like the sort of argument of someone who might be trying to convince Historic Racing Officials or classic car market of some unicorn model
Yep

A few years ago I went to Pukekohe race track in NZ for some reason (I don't think I was driving, so not sure why I was there. Think I was visiting from Sydney and my father was the starter), any way my father took me to this 1750 GTV to have a look as he had been informed by the owner that it was an Autodelta car or a GTAm. The car he showed me was as far as I could tell a dead standard series II 1750 GTV, like mine but red. Now maybe it's ownership history showed that it was once serviced or tuned by Autodelta ... and somehow ended up in NZ, but from what I could see it had absolutely no special parts on it. Maybe it was once left hand drive and the owner really said to my father that it was the chassis type that was used as the basis of the GTAm's ...

Why did I share that story?, because I suspect that this is similar to how the 1750 GTV with factory aluminium panels started. I little bit of factual information discussed with a few hungry and receptive Alfisti, and of course it's been relayed a few times since then ...
Pete
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