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New owner 1974 GTV has no idea what he got himself into

60K views 292 replies 47 participants last post by  evermore 
#1 ·
Good morning Alfisti,

I just received my 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV yesterday. It was listed at BHCC and is in running condition but unrestored. My main aim is to get it fixed up so that I can drive it on a daily basis.

- While I purchased the car in Los Angeles, I cannot be sure that is where BHCC got it from. It is not a US-spec car as it has the Weber carbs and the speedometer is in km/h. I have the vehicle number (AR2443083) and the engine number (1Z (?) 005512*28920) so figuring out the original country of sale would be interesting.. do I just contact Marco Fazio?


- The engine starts up easily and runs fine.. well except that the cover on the airbox had come off so that surely screws up the air/fuel mixture.
- I can reverse and all 5 gears engage. I am having some difficulty engaging second gear smoothly (without some gear grinding noise). Could just be me but I will monitor.
- Braking was.. well far worse than my 4Runner.
- Rear right coil spring is broken. The two pieces of coil sit on top of each other so this clearly needs fixing.
- As for the rest of the underside... let's just say here there be dragons. Will update when I can .

Plan of action is to take take detailed photos of well pretty much anything this weekend, then take it to Rich at Continental Motors to get a basic service and determine if there is any need of work on that end.

Given that one of the coil springs has failed completely, replacing them and the dampeners all around is a logical first project. I might do brakes and bushings at the same time.

I will update with more photos this weekend.

Cheers!

Michael
Willow Glen, CA
 

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#163 ·
Clarification on the condition of the car

Hmm, I think there is some confusion on the state of the car (I have obviously focused on the issue as I was trying to address them according to my goals).

Frame: As mentioned, the frame was impacted during whatever accident the car was in. However it was repaired. Instead of trying to twist back the portion holding the engine mount and the driver side upper control arm, they opted to reinforce it instead. THAT is why the body shop was reluctant to pull the frame as the consequences would be unpredictable. In the shape it is in, the car is safe to drive. Both the mechanics at Continental Motors and at Freeman Frame were clear about this.

Engine: The engine runs smoothly now that the valves were adjusted. I have don't have updated compression numbers but it is night and day when actually driving it. There are no leaks nor any smoke. It starts up easily and with the newly installed fan shroud helping with proper cooling, this is not a problem area anymore.

Transmission and clutch: Except for engaging second gear, it is fine. I did learn that if I shift at 2k rpm from 1st to 2nd, it will engage smoothly and no fancy footwork is needed.

Interior: small bits and pieces are missing or broken (passenger door handle, ceiling light covers, and the speedometer is not working). These are cheap and easy fixes. The seats are in great condition, the dash is not cracked or sun damaged so the interior looks great.

Rust: Definitely in the trunk lid sill and any exposed metal underneath. Structurally though, the jack points and rocker panels are ok. Whatever rust there is, I do not think it will propagate any further given the climate here.

Steering, alignment, and suspension: Steering is a bit vague on center and not on par with modern cars. If I kept the car, i would want to replace all the bushings and tie rods to make it more enjoyable but it's ok for regular driving. The car pulls a tiny bit to the left. Freeman Frame said that this could easily be compensated for (remember how the left side front wheel sits a little too far forward) but it's simply not big enough of an issue to address. The broken rear spring will have to be replaced but it still performs its duty. Otherwise, the other suspensions (and steering) components are intact but old. Hence my original plan to just replace everything. If I make that type of investment though, I would want to start with a frame that does not have this history and repairs which is how we are at the present point.

There is absolutely no reason to go for some extreme solution such as parting out the car. This is not a concourse car but it's also not a junker. Especially with the recent fixes (and addressing a couple more items like the spring), it can be an enjoyable weekend car for years to come. Unfortunately, I want a vehicle I can flog around Skyline Blvd and take to the track and this is not that the car that can be turned into that type of vehicle. This is a weekend cruiser, not a potential racer.
 
#164 ·
I think in the long run it is often more advantageous to buy a car that has been restored to a decent level, while the upfront cost may be a bitter pill to swallow, you generally get more bang for the buck buying this way. It doesn't take long to easily surpass the cost of a restored car when you start off with a project that nickles and dimes you to the point which can easily have you thousands of dollars higher than the cost of a restored car. Just my thoughts.
 
#165 ·
I personally don't see any better opportunity to make a car to flog around in than with one that has had previous issues. this gives you the opportunity to replace broken parts with stronger race bits and beef everything up while your at it. Why start out with a perfect example? especially when it comes to steering and suspension stuff.

I think of this as an opportunity!
 
#166 ·
Mr. Evermore, At the risk of being blunt it's not a weekend cruiser. We don't know it's safe to drive (someone saw the tires are twenty years old, right?) and most likely hasn't been driven much at all in the last couple of decades. I've had a lot of Alfas and I have to disagree that when you fix the rear spring the car will still be somewhat level. It won't. It's bent. If you are honest and sell it for what it's worth you are going to take a bath on the car. If you want to do what BHCC did to you that is of course up to you and your conscience but hopefully you won't. I guess I missed the part about it being reinforced but reinforcing a bent car just ain't right.
You should insist any potential buyer get a PPI or include this link and sell it for what's it's really worth or keep it as a parts car. The moral of this story is DON'T BUY A CAR FROM SOMEONE WHO WON'T LET YOU DO A PPI! Good luck and I sincerely mean that.
 
#167 ·
+1
 
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#169 ·
I feel for Evermore. I hope it works out and we have another Alfisti to wave at when on our drives
I would feel for him more if he were making a more honest effort to sell the car, and not trying to saddle someone else with the problems he found at a higher price than he himself paid. Like I said, I actually went to look at this car before I knew about this thread, and I feel he was less than honest in his Craigslist ad or in his verbal statements. That is not cool.

On the other hand, there's now a documented paper trail on the known issues with this car.
 
#172 ·
Yep, it's my opinion, for whatever it's worth. Most likely you and I just have very different selling philosophies, and I'll leave it at that.

With regards to my personal motivation, though, I can tell you you're wrong. I have bought and sold relatively few cars in my life, but I've never tried to rip anyone off on either side of the situation. Honestly I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I was most definitely not expecting a trailer queen for $29K.
 
#173 ·
I'm rather astonished you would take anything Tom Sahines (I'm assuming that's BHCC) says as accurate. His fiduciary responsibility isn't to you, it's to himself. He has every reason to say that, if he doesn't you can take him to small claims court. You probably should anyway. Print out this thread, show it to the judge and you stand a good chance of getting a judgement. Whether you ever collect is a different matter. Anyone that sells a car with a broken spring and says it's safe to drive should be president. I wonder if BHCC has a facebook page?
 
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#174 ·
oh no, Tom isn't connected with BHCC at all. He's a local Alfa expert and does restorations. He was mentioned to me by multiple people on Alfabb. His assessment was obviously based having replaced the spring.


Now as for legal recourse with BHCC regarding the spring.. I dont have a screenshot of how the car was described but I was sent a Vehicle Inspection Sheet that says the shock absorbers/suspension/struts were "Checked and okay". That is obviously wrong but not sure it's enough of a legal basis to go after them.....
 
#175 · (Edited)
Suspension is pretty important. If not represented accurately it's fraud. I would point that out to them and at a minimum try to negotiate the price. What have you got to lose? I said my piece on their FB page.
 
#176 ·
I trust Tom, but if asked to make an offer on it, I doubt he'd pony up 20k for it as it sits, better ones to be found without the issues
I agree that if you're truly looking to make a track car, you have the best one already.
pull the back seat put in a bar if you really want to -- I dont think until you get out there its needed
unless you dont trust it n its all smoke, youre gonna lose too much on the deal to make it worth it to find another n start over
take what you have n make it right
Make frame right, add tuneable suspension bits, buy some great tires n wheels for playing and you'll have a great car that you can build on
For me, knowing what I know about alfa engines and how easy they blow bearings, Id tighten up the engine, gearbox n rear end to avoid catastrophic damage while "playing".
but thats me and Ive only learned that by not doing it, several times over.
At that point you still have a stock looking car which will recoup its value
May not be a 40k car, but def not the 15k car you have now
 
#177 ·
original listing..

the listing is still working so here was the description of the car as given:
https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1974-alfa-romeo-gtv-2000-c-8058.htm

"1974 Alfa Romeo GTV 2000

This beautiful 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 seen here is available in silver with black interior. It comes equipped with a manual transmission, wood steering wheel, dual Weber carburetors, solid wheels and includes the spare tire. An extremely clean and presentable example and as well as being an excellent original California car which is mechanically sound. "
 
#180 ·
That car wasn't from California. In Texas the title shows the last owner. Who was on the title when you bought it? Knowing the previous owner would help a lot. Seriously, I'd check on the small claims court in your area (I'm not sure where you are located) but most have limits that if you win would put you about even assuming you can collect. Have you mentioned the broken spring to them and let them know they misrepresented the car?
 
#182 · (Edited)
Evermore. Here's what I'd do, but the story is first.
I bought a '70 GT 1300 jr that had a 2.0L transplant. All excited after looking at photos, and after quite a few (read, many!) phone conversations I bought it. Trusty, I am. So the car gets delivered and it's just like I thought it would be. Nothing perfect, but after all the calls and questions prior to purchase, it wasn't depressing. It was only meant to be a fun driver, and I was told it wasn't perfect. So the car goes into my storage for 3-4 days, and then I bring it home to get all anal on it and do my usual 'get to know everything' detail. First a wash and I find some untold rust. Another few days go by and as I'm working on the wheels, I find inner wheel well issues. Still not 'too' upsetting, but I'm getting less than happy. Another 1/2 week goes by before I can have some fun cleaning the blue over tan again. Now, keep in mind, I'm driving this awesome sounding little GT, our first GT, with lots of power. And it had air conditioning, custom installed. Oh, the fun it was slamming the go-pedal. But the rust starts accumulating and it's everywhere. The rockers in the hard to see areas are almost chipping away. Stuff that was hidden well. Anyway, you can imagine my own embarrassment when looking at myself in the mirror.
The car was sold to us by a partner of a well known dealer, the engine worked on and car maintained by the owner/collectors (Ferrari class) mechanic and then on to us. Hell, it was delivered to me with another car in the trailer. A freshly restored blue over oxblood, 250 California. Wow!!
I was very busy with work, but eventually it's week three and I find this rust in the foot box right below the pedals (picture, you should think of it as a broken suspension coil spring). Holy crap, I ask myself, was the 2liter fun so influential in my not looking closer, faster. Duh.
I also remembered every call and every text, letter, and email in which I asked very particular questions regarding rust. The point is I was lied to. Not twisted, or coerced. Flat out lied to.
So I called the partner first. I said that I was about to send him some very serious photos and copies of etc, etc, etc......
It's so incriminating that he first asked if I wanted my money back, and/or what...... I said good by, and that he should look for the new email I was about to send him and that I'd be happy to spread the information to the high end dealer network that they spend their lives involved in. Oh, also that I'm sure the internet world would love the info.
He then offered to wire transfer all the money the next day including shipping one way and would have the shipper call me right away. I figured the $500 out of my pocket was a good and inexpensive lesson to myself.
So, my advise, is to use the power of accurate threats (!!!!!). As long as the info you tell is correct. Meaning the internet world can be used both ways.
You have enough qualified opinions and information right now from this source (our fellow bb'ers!), and from the sources you have used to inspect the car.
If the seller is a third as smart as they think they are, and before this really spreads and gets out of hand, they'll also run to their bank and wire transfer you your funds back. You were sold the most 'unsafe' car in the world. Unsafe, unsafe, unsafe..... that car could 'kill' you. And your family. Just offer to pay the one way shipping fee.
(Sorry for the long winded story. The above story is true, but might have some 'story telling' type inaccuracies)
����
 

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#185 · (Edited)
Getting an attorney costs money. You're already at a loss. Rather than spend money on that, you might as well turn it into a track car and have fun. Otherwise, you're spinning the money wheel. Yeah, you might win and also get your misc fees back. Buts that's time consuming. Who knows how soon you'll get to court. Maybe your attorney writes the letter to them stating everything you've gone through, but you'll still pay them. You already have all the tools you need to try to get your cash back. You need to stop and kick ***. Remember that you were sold a probable death trap, and they knew it. God only knows when you'd get hurt. I don't care what you signed, in duress, to get that car. Your family could die in it. I'd like to see some photos put on the bb right now. Start them realizing you're serious. You already know, that they know, they did wrong. Play this to your favor. Otherwise time will work against you no matter which way you try. Seriously, what have you to lose??
 
#186 ·
Getting an attorney costs money. You're already at a loss. Rather than spend money on that, you might as well turn it into a track car and have fun. Otherwise, you're spinning the money wheel. Yeah, you might win and also get your misc fees back. Buts that's time consuming. Who knows how soon you'll get to court. Maybe your attorney writes the letter to them stating everything you've gone through, but you'll still pay them. You already have all the tools you need to try to get your cash back. You need to stop and kick ***. Remember that you were sold a probably death trap, and they knew it. God only knows when you'd get hurt. I don't care what you signed, in duress, to get that car. Your family could die in it. I'd like to see some photos put on the bb right now. Start them realizing you're serious. You already know, that they know, they did wrong. Play this to your favor. Otherwise time will work against you no matter which way you try. Seriously, what have you to lose??
Thanks for the story and I do take your advice. I have actually contacted a lawyer but hopefully things can be done with the threat alone. We will see. I laughed at Tom as that's the third time he said it :)
 
#187 ·
I see my review is still on their FB page, at least it shows up for me. If they start hemming and hawing about some sort of restitution you might say there are many more potential FB reviews telling an honest story about your experience with them. I have no doubt you signed away just about any rights you might have when you signed whatever you signed with them but they also have an obligation to tell you the truth and represent the car accurately so whatever you signed isn't worth the paper it's written on. I'm not an attorney I just play one on tv.
 
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#189 ·
It continually blows my mind how people can stand in front of a crowd or face to face and just plain lie through their teeth. I would be interested to know their rational for not allowing a PPI by one's own mechanic if that really is true. Seems like I saw that somewhere else. I don't see how you can lose a small claim. The broken spring and twenty year old tires alone should be enough.
 
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#190 ·
If the dealer has a policy of no PPI they then position themselves as experts and are certifying the vehicle to a certain standard,
THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION STANDARD OF PRACTICE FOR DEALERS
" Furthermore, the vehicle must meet all safety requirements as set forth by the Department of Motor Vehicles. If a dealer fails to follow these guidelines, or misrepresents any of the information in the Buyer’s Guide, the buyer may be entitled to damages".
 
#191 ·
you're preaching to the choir on that one:) I convinced myself 40 posts ago but good information for Evermore, I hope he gets somewhere with those clowns.
 
#193 ·
For those whose popcorn is going stale, just letting you know that I'm working with a lawyer now who is reviewing the situation.

*rather be driving an Alfa*
The best lemon law lawyer (this isn’t lemon law as it’s too old, but still....) I know is Greg Babbitt in San Diego, I think. I came about two days away from trying a case against him in Napa County Superior Court. Very good lawyer, and very decent guy. AND he works on a % fee of whatever he gets, so no $ out of pocket. If you’re not thrilled with your currrent guy, call Greg and tell him Jonathan Thames in SF sent you.
 
#201 ·
Here you go..... from a bunch of photos earlier in the thread.....
 

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