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New owner 1974 GTV has no idea what he got himself into

60K views 292 replies 47 participants last post by  evermore 
#1 ·
Good morning Alfisti,

I just received my 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV yesterday. It was listed at BHCC and is in running condition but unrestored. My main aim is to get it fixed up so that I can drive it on a daily basis.

- While I purchased the car in Los Angeles, I cannot be sure that is where BHCC got it from. It is not a US-spec car as it has the Weber carbs and the speedometer is in km/h. I have the vehicle number (AR2443083) and the engine number (1Z (?) 005512*28920) so figuring out the original country of sale would be interesting.. do I just contact Marco Fazio?


- The engine starts up easily and runs fine.. well except that the cover on the airbox had come off so that surely screws up the air/fuel mixture.
- I can reverse and all 5 gears engage. I am having some difficulty engaging second gear smoothly (without some gear grinding noise). Could just be me but I will monitor.
- Braking was.. well far worse than my 4Runner.
- Rear right coil spring is broken. The two pieces of coil sit on top of each other so this clearly needs fixing.
- As for the rest of the underside... let's just say here there be dragons. Will update when I can .

Plan of action is to take take detailed photos of well pretty much anything this weekend, then take it to Rich at Continental Motors to get a basic service and determine if there is any need of work on that end.

Given that one of the coil springs has failed completely, replacing them and the dampeners all around is a logical first project. I might do brakes and bushings at the same time.

I will update with more photos this weekend.

Cheers!

Michael
Willow Glen, CA
 

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#64 ·
Update after seeing the car on the lift at the mechanic:

- There are a couple areas where the undercoating is peeling. it reveals clean metal underneath. Overall, Rich thought the underbody is sound. So I might do the pressure washing to make my life easier for replacing all the suspension parts but removing the undercoating wont actually do me much good.

- As everyone suspected, the front end is heavily bondoed (sp?). Given the amount of work to fix this I will leave this to the time the car gets stripped completely and resprayed. My plans is to make it a fast daily driver that is in sound condition to take to the track (though I doubt I ever will).

- Rich will do the following work: compression check, valve clearance check, replace all fluids, new engine mounts, replace shaft coupling, fix the dodgy mounts for the stainless steel exhaust, address the oil pressure and temp gauges and the speedometer. We will evaluate the brakes and steering after he has driven it.
 
#63 ·
Can't hurt. For the suspension about all you'll need is a decent press and some all thread to compress the springs. There are threads on all this here. I've found google is way better than the search function here. for instance search for "front suspension rebuild alfabb" and you'll get stuff like

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1963-1977/123411-74-gtv-2000-front-suspension-rebuild-3.html

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spi...192358-front-suspension-change-dummies-4.html

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spi...94/159592-tools-front-suspension-rebuild.html

hope that helps!!
 
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#65 ·
Regarding new springs, i have a set of Alfaholics fast road springs on my Super and they're pretty good, they've lowered the car to a nice degree and arent too stiff for road use. With stiffer springs you will need uprated dampers; Alfaholics recommend Koni yellows, despite many believing them to be too hard. Im fitting a set of yellows to my car this week and I'll let you know how i get on with them.

Also, if your steering box is leaking oil and you dont want to refurb it just yet many use grease instead of oil to prevent leakage.
 
#66 ·
I really hope it's nothing however when looking at the rear of the car it almost looks like it's a little high on the left side which makes sense since the broken spring is on the right side. I would expect it to be really low on the right side with the broken spring though. I hope the spring isn't hiding some serious frame issues. Definitely worth checking into. It wouldn't be the first time someone cut a spring to level out a car.
You've got enough crud on the dif and trust me it's not all undercoating to make pressure washing a good idea. It's had a hard life for sure, it deserves someone to give it some love.
 
#68 ·
Nothing untoward on the back end as far as the mechanic and I can tell. The broken spring in the back lowers that section by 1-2 cm so that is likely what you are seeing.

As for the front end.. I may just call it bondo heaven! Still, whoever did the job fixing the front end did a decent job, it's just that they got the crease line wrong. Given the size of that job and that it is not critical from a mechanical perspective, I will leave that to the time the car gets a full teardown and respray.
 
#69 ·
I used the Classic Alfa springs with their 29mm front sway bar and have had the IAP red springs on my other GTV for several years now. The heavier front sway bar really makes a difference although the rear ride height took some getting used to (pretty low) as the top of the tire is just barely below the wheel arch. I've had a bunch of Alfas and never seen a spring break but I'm sure it's possible, anythings possible. The fact the gap between the top of the tire and and the wheel arch looks close to normal is what worried me. You should be ok, I hope, I really do. A quick and unrelated check you can do is with the wheels straight ahead measure the distance between the centers of the wheel hubs, they should be about the same. That will be a good indication if the front end whack is just cosmetic.
 
#70 ·
update from the mechanic

Just talked to Rich and there are some quirky things going on, and one that is going to be expensive..


- Compression is withing 100-125 for 3 of the cylinders, 160 for the fourth. The valves were adjusted plus the new fluids might help this a bit. I'll reassess after driving it for a while.
- Rich is confused about the engine: he thinks it might be an earlier engine as the radiator hose doesn't fit, and there is a mechanical fuel pump. From what I can tell, the engine does point to it being a '74 (1R00512*28920). Not sure what is going with the other parts not matching...
- Big item: the bolts for the motor mounts were actually cut off deliberately before so they have to be drilled out before the new ones can be installed properly. 3-6 hours of labor... crap.




On the less important side, I have a couple other questions:

- are there discount with Alfaholics?
- Do we have to pay duty for parts ordered from the UK (alfaholics and classicalfa?)
- My steering wheel is pretty shot. I'll get splinters handling it. I see a bunch of replacement ones, from Nardi and Momo as well as a GTA replica. Any thoughts on these options?
 
#73 · (Edited)
- Compression is withing 100-125 for 3 of the cylinders, 160 for the fourth. The valves were adjusted plus the new fluids might help this a bit. I'll reassess after driving it for a while.
It would be nice if the compression in those 3 cylinders comes up. I wouldn't be optimistic, however.

- Rich is confused about the engine: he thinks it might be an earlier engine as the radiator hose doesn't fit, and there is a mechanical fuel pump. From what I can tell, the engine does point to it being a '74
You had mentioned that this is a European-delivery car, which might explain the mechanical fuel pump. If it has been in the US for awhile, someone may have replaced the water pump with one intended for a Spica engine, which would explain the radiator hose not fitting. Or used the right pump, but with a Spica hose. This pertains to the lower hose; is that the one that doesn't fit?

- Big item: the bolts for the motor mounts were actually cut off deliberately before so they have to be drilled out before the new ones can be installed properly.
The bolts or the studs? Yes, that will be a big job to fix; I assume it will necessitate pulling the engine to gain the access needed to weld in new studs. While the engine is out you could address the low compression (and a hundred other things).
 
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#71 · (Edited)
Call Larry at Alfa Parts Exchange APE he has a yard full of Alfas and is a good source for things like steering wheels and all sorts of parts, large and small.

No duty for orders under a grand. Over a grand DHL the shipper collects that and it's about 60 bucks on a 1500 dollar order, at least that's what I paid, somewhere around that. It's not much really.

I think you are ok on the motor. The Euro cars had mechanical fuel pumps but someone else should confirm that.
 
#75 ·
Although the standard item is a lovely design, I'd personally love a smaller Nardi rim in my car. A smaller rim would make the car feel more agile and an allows for the use of a column extender - useful if you're tall and are forced to have your seat right back to accommodate your legs, leaving your arms stretched out. I really like a wheel close to my chest, but its down to personal preference and money in the end.
 
#76 ·
That the studs are cut deliberately is like Ajay said is a pretty big deal to fix. However the big question is Why???? I wouldn't be surprised if that is hiding other problems. Given that the compression is in line with the overall condition of the car the motor needs to be rebuilt. You have all the preliminary symptoms of a common aliment all of us have suffered at one time or another. The WhileI'minthereitus diease is just a fact of life. Sure you can drive it with the low compression and all the other issues but it won't be reliable and you'll end up being frustrated with the car. You can do the motor, gearbox, and suspension now and have a reliable car that won't leave you stranded and you'll enjoy the experience. The cosmetic stuff can be done later. A basic motor rebuild won't break the bank, gaskets, valves, pistons and liners, bearings, and for sure, don't be tempted not to, a new oil pump. Spruell is a good source for a lot of the motor stuff.
 
#77 ·
another mechanic update...

Ok, now I have a real mystery on my hand: My mechanic believes the engine might be a 1600cc engine.

this is based on the following (keep in mind this is a car that was most likely sold in Italy):
- radiator hoses from a 1600 fit
- water pump for a 1600 fit
- mechanical fuel pump
- dip stick is located on the left of the engine (air intake/carb side)

What speaks against this is the engine number that is embossed. My understanding is that all 512 engines went into GTVs, Berlinas and Spider and date from the 1971 on...

Any ideas? Either someone embossed a new engine number on an old block or the engine was fixed over time with 1600 parts.. though the location of the dipstick might speak against that.. did any 2000s have dipsticks on the right?
 

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#80 · (Edited)
Ok, now I have a real mystery on my hand: My mechanic believes the engine might be a 1600cc engine:
- radiator hoses from a 1600 fit
- water pump for a 1600 fit
- mechanical fuel pump
- dip stick is located on the left of the engine (air intake/carb side)
I agree with gigem75; all the things you describe above are consistent with a European 2 liter. Measuring the deck height - distance from the top of the water pump to the head gasket - would distinguish a 1600 from a 2L. I'll measure my 1600 and 2L tomorrow and edit those dimensions into this post.

OK, I measured the heights of two timing chain covers that I have loose in my garage.

1600: 11-1/16" ~ 281 mm

2000: 11-15/32" ~ 291.3 mm

I realize that may it be pretty difficult to measure the block height of an assembled engine installed in a car.

We are all forgetting the most obvious difference between a 1600 and 2L: the oil filter. 1600's have a cartridge-type filter mounted on the block, while 2L's have a spin-on mounted on the timing chain cover. You can see the oil filter mount at the bottom of the photo of the 2L cover pictured below:
 

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#78 ·
Even the Euro Alfetta's which came after the GTV's have mechanical fuel pumps and the dipstick on the right side. You have a 2L motor. I'm looking at a factory shop manual.
 
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#79 ·
I hope you are right though my mechanic is pretty convinced otherwise. I asked him to check the identification mark on the front of it as well (based on the info at veloce.se) and it supposedly is a circle with a square. Apparently there is another circle with a 1.6 in it as well. Hopefully I'll know more tomorrow..
 
#82 ·
If it is a 1600 you have a good case to return the car. Personally I think you can do way better for what you spent. I have a fully restored driver and I mean fully that I won't be asking much more than that for.
 
#84 ·
I wouldn't go by numbers. Alfajay has the best solution. The head height for a 2 liter is 112mm new. 111.5mm minimum. that is from the head gasket to the bottom of the cam cover less gaskets.
 
#85 ·
Radiator hoses and dipstick location are no factors to determine the engine size.
In Europe, all top hoses are the same, only dependent on whether you have a manifold with the screw-in thermostat or not, therefore only 2 hoses, irrespective of engine size.

I have now had three 2 litre Giulias. All have dipsticks on the inlet side of the engine.

Water pumps also are not determined by engine size, rather whether or not the car has dynamo or alternator, has cable driven tachometer, (2 or 3 outlet),or is carburettor or injection.

Most Euro cars that are carburettored initially have mech fuel pumps, although lots of people change them to electric.

Your engine number looks correct, and as you say, was fitted to 2 litre GTV, Berlina & Spiders.

Pretty sure that I've seen pics of a 2 litre head with (confusingly) a 1.6 cast into it, maybe at some time the 2 litre castings were in short supply, and the 1.6's were machined to 2 litre spec ?
Seen it before in tractor manufacture.
Steve
 
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#86 ·
A definitive way to know for sure, without a doubt, positively would be to check the stroke. Remove a spark plug, bring the piston to the top of the stroke insert a rod and zero it next to a ruler, rotate the crank 180 degrees to the bottom of the stroke and measure again. A 2 liter has a stroke of 88.5mm, a 1600 is 82mm. I really think you have a 1600 though.
The cam cover bolts on a 1600 need a 14mm allen wrench to remove them although they can be purchased and put on a 2L cam cover whereas the 2Ls need an open end 17mm wrench to remove them. I got mine from Classic Alfa because they are chrome and remind me of my first Alfa.
A 1600 does not have the two 6mm bolts on the front of the cam cover. 2Ls do have them and yours does. There are just to many things that add up to your having the correct motor.
 
#89 ·
This is a euro spec car. I guess you are thinking of a Giulia Sprint 1600 when you think of 1600.

But what we know as the 2000 GTV was manufactured right up to 1975 with both a 2000 and 1600 engine in Europe.

They even had the same 2000 instrument binnacle. These 1600's had the oil filter up front and the 2 x small bolts for the cam cover.

Attached are photos of a 1975 1600- hard to tell the difference!

Measuring the stroke through the plug hole would be the most effective way of deciding on the engine size.
 

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#88 ·
new pictures

so I went by the mechanic again to confirm a couple items.

- the engine marking is a circle with a square with a diagonal line
- the oil filter is located at the front of the engine
- the 2 bolts at the front of the cam cover.

All these confirm it is a 2000cc engine. Thanks to everyone that helped with this mystery! It was the other parts bolted on that suggested it's a 1600cc so I'm glad that is not the case. I should get the car back on Monday as we are waiting for a radiator hose.

On a separate note, there is evidence that the car had an accident on the driver side which did impact the engine mounts. The good news is that this must have happened a very long time ago as the repairs look like they are decades old.

Though I don't have evidence for myself yet, I asked Rich what the original color of the car was and he said he had seen blue on the frame somewhere.
 

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#91 ·
Yep... absolutely agree with you. I think it is a 2000.

I was replying to Alfajay to clarify that the 1600 was available way after the Giulia Sprint so the placement of the oil filter is not an indication- especially on a Euro car. In fact, in 1975 you could get a 1300, 1600 and 2000 version.

The 1300 and 1600 were the "poverty packs". Notice in the photos- no bumper over-riders. Lots of other small details that distinguish it from the 2000. But the engines all look the same, hence the markings on the head.
 
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#93 · (Edited)
I was replying to Alfajay to clarify that the 1600 was available way after the Giulia Sprint so the placement of the oil filter is not an indication- especially on a Euro car. In fact, in 1975 you could get a 1300, 1600 and 2000 version.
I do have that information filed in the back of my brain. But since cars sold here in the US were all equipped with canister filters for 1300, 1600, 1750 and spin-on's for the 2000, I tend to forget it.

But of course, evermore has a non US-delivery car, so my simplistic system doesn't apply. Yea, it could have been delivered in 1974 with a 1300 or 1600 cc engine equipped with a spin-on filter. Thanks for clarifying.
 
#94 ·
Hah! Yeah I think most people become experts in subjects they never aspired to out of accident and necessity. I should get the car back this evening so can't wait what to get an idea what a GTV actually drives like (limping to the mechanic doesn't count)
 
#98 ·
Now that didn’t come to my mind. Probably flood damage to my brain.
It sounds like your Alfa guy is being thorough.
Great luck, and welcome to the club!! It’s a wonderful club to be in!!
 
#102 ·
next steps

So, next steps:
- Order the fast road suspension package stage 1 from alfaholics (without the Konis which I'll order from tirerack).
- As a personal indulgence, the 7x15 GTA Superleggera wheels. (probably mount Yokohama S.Drive 205/55R15 tires, open to suggestions though!)
- Brake pads: Stoptech Street Pads from tirerack. I'm a bit confused as brake pads I see in other places for the GTV have a square shape while these look trapezoidal..
- Steering: the drag link and the outer track rods are bent and need to be replaced. What is a good place to order such stock parts from?
 
#104 ·
So, next steps:
- Order the fast road suspension package stage 1 from alfaholics (without the Konis which I'll order from tirerack).
- As a personal indulgence, the 7x15 GTA Superleggera wheels. (probably mount Yokohama S.Drive 205/55R15 tires, open to suggestions though!)
- Brake pads: Stoptech Street Pads from tirerack. I'm a bit confused as brake pads I see in other places for the GTV have a square shape while these look trapezoidal..
- Steering: the drag link and the outer track rods are bent and need to be replaced. What is a good place to order such stock parts from?
My personal preference would be the Harvey Bailey handling kit from Classic Alfa. I've fitted three of these now on my current, and previous two 105's and prefer this kit to the Alfaholics one on a friends car. He actually prefers it too.
Again, my preference for authentic looks would be the 7 x 14" GTA replica wheels. With these you can fit a 185 x 70 x 14" tyre and have a more period look, whilst filling the wheelarches nicely. I don't know about the availability of good 14" tyres in the USA, but here in the UK we still have a huge choice of excellent road tyres in 14". eg. Avon, Continental, Vredestein etc. If you're not considering serious track time in the future, then these are more than good enough, and cheaper too. On my last two cars I've had a set of 14" Conti's fitted, and a set of 15" Avons on the TZ1 wheels on the Sedan, for £200 all in.
Also you'll get a better, more compliant ride with 70 series tyres rather than 55 series.
Never heard of the brake pads you mention, I fit either Ferodo or Mintex.
Show us a pic of your calipers so that we can assess what you need.
The steering bits you mention are all available from Classic Alfa or Alfaholics, EB Spares , Highwood etc, but I guess you'll have a source in the States too.
Of course, all of the above is my personal preference.
Steve
 
#103 ·
The best place for used parts is Alfa Parts Exchange near Tracy, CA. If Jon Norman at Alfa Parts in Berkeley can't get an OEM part it likely doesn't exist.

Centerline in Colorado is my default for most parts, or Vicks in Texas.

I like those Stoptech pads. I just put a set on a 2004 Mustang GT with mushy brakes and they did wonders. I have a set for my Berlina waiting to go on.

7x15 wheels will look great, but get the suspension done first or they will magnify every issues. I had 7x15 wheels on my Berlina and went back to 5.5x14 because I liked the way they drove better. I will likely go up a notch to 6x14 as a compromise.

Enjoy!
 
#106 ·
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give Alfa Parts a call first I think. The stock wheels are in poor condition and would have to be refinished. I also need new tires all around so given that I have to spend money regardless, I'd rather put it towards something I will actually enjoy. The suspension work will come first though!
 
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