Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums - Reply to Topic
Thread: Tipo 33 Engine Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-05-2016 03:15 PM
IRONBLOCK "The motor, placed in a central position, destined to racing cars at Le Mans, was a 1995 cc V8 designed by Ing. Carlo Chiti, founder and leader of the team Autodelta racing, Alfa Romeo's racing department. Genuine technological jewel, built entirely of aluminum and magnesium, had access to Lucas indirect mechanical injection system, dry sump lubrication, four camshafts in the head, and sixteen spark plugs (2 per cylinder).
Here are the details:
--- 90 ° V8 engine; Bore and stroke 78 x 52.2; Unitarian cc engine capacity. 249.25.
--- Total displacement cc.1995; piston area cmq 47.76.
--- Race Report / Diameter 0.669
--- Report stroke / connecting rod length of 2.31; Compression ratio 10.7: 1
--- Max. for the race of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, contained in 255-hp DIN at 9,400 rpm.
--- Specific power (x Le Mans) 127.5 hp / liter
--- Torque and speed corresponding DIN-20.7 kgm at 7,500 rpm.
--- Meters per second pistons 16.3
--- Specific consumption 250 gr. / Hp / h.
--- Lubricant consumption of less than 100 gr. / H.
--- Aluminum monobloc with central suction and external drains.
--- Misalignment between the cylinder 21 mm.
--- In the "type flat steel motor shaft" with damper flyer and cranks side by side.
--- Bench Media 5 mm diameter. 60, thickness mm. 21 (2 external and central) other mm. 18
--- Size crank pins; Mm diameter. 45 - mm thick. 20
--- Pins Size Diameter mm. 20
--- Main bearings and big-end brand Wanderwell thin shell
--- Jacks with bronze bushing; Aluminium heads with hemispherical combustion chamber
--- Pistons in aluminum shoe with domed heads and 3 segments 2 of which the sealing and scraper 1 - Borgo brand.
--- Connecting rods in steel with distance between the centers mm. 120
--- Cast iron shirts reported wet-type; Water cooling with two lateral radiators and expansion tank. Operating Pressure 0.9 mm. of water column. circuit capacity 13 liters.
--- Distribution 2 valves per cylinder and four overhead camshafts. Command in the front part of the cylinder block with mixed type of toothed wheels and chains train.
--- Camshaft in hardening steel and 5 supports.
--- Angle between valves 48 ° (23 ° to 25 ° to the suction and discharge)
--- The diameter valves; Intake 40.5 mm. and Throat mm. 36.
--- Lift mm. 10.2 - Spring-2 helical
--- Valve timing; ahead suction 50th - late 70th, early 50th and late Exhaust 70 °
--- Power Indirect injection Lucas. Injection early 90th after T.D.C. suction.
--- Ignition with spark plugs per cylinder 2 mm in diameter. 10; Lodge RL-49
--- Ignition Timing 32 ° / 33 ° with 2 Marelli distributors to 8 outputs and 4 coils Marelli transistorizzazione Bosch.
---Firing order; Numbering of cylinders from the front and right cylinders with even number: 1-8-3-6 4-5-2-7
--- Dry sump lubrication and oil cooler with pressure pump 1 and 2 recovery. Oil Capacity 15 Kg. Filtering in parallel with filters.
--- Of single cylinder type suction - Exhausts type 4 in 1
--- Engine coupling and direct exchange - hydraulically operated clutch
--- Change Colotti 6-speed + reverse gear type cascaded with straight cut gears and couplings Claw without synchronizers and central control
--- Reports = 3.25 ° I - II 2,18 - III 1.6 - 1.3 IV - V 1.12 ° - 0.96 ° VI
--- Max. individual gears; 88-131 - 179-220 - 256-298 km / h
--- Reduction Couple spiral teeth - Teeth 11/42 equal to rapp. 3.08
--- Slip Differential ZF rung. "

Fluent in Google Translate...
Mark
03-04-2016 07:33 PM
alfettapb ARGTAreg....the article I quoted was a period article when the engines were still being produced and when Alfa Romeo was racing the tipo 33 and journalists in my experience when stating origin, which is important, try to get their facts correct in their articles so if it was Chiti who designed it surely he would have been told by whoever he spoke to? The whole article (with a cutaway of the tipe 33/3 by "quattroruote") was very detailed about the original engine and how the engine was subsequently developed bit by bit as well as the chassis and suspension and this could only have been obtained through speaking to Alfa Romeo/Autodelta directly in my humble opinion.
Furthermore the origin of the design of the tipo 33 engine was also attested to Satta/Busso in the Italian only book by Busso as discussed previously in this thread who as already has been mentioned wrote that it was a sad day when the car was pulled from Alfa Romeo to be given to Autodelta to develop, when the bones of the original chassis and engine were designed at Alfa Romeo. Chiti subsequently changed radically the chassis in the t33/3 to be lighter and stronger and undertook the development of the engine to 2.5 and then 3 litres.
Furthermore, just to say in the book "Alfa Montreal" by Georgio Nada in Italian only it states regarding the tipo 33 engine...."non essendo ancora pronto l'8V, sulla 33 venne installato un motore a 4 cilindri dela Giulia TZ2. "il motore definitivo" afferma Busso "disegnato e costruito dall"Alfa Romeo, inizio' a girare al banco nel febbraio 1966 a cura dell'Auto Delta che ne segui;, poi, sia lo sviluppo sia l'impiego in pista". Nel giugno 1966, la 33 fu equipaggiata con il motore a 8 cilindri. Inizio' quindi la messa a punto finale della vettura.
Apart from this of course the ATS engines of Chiti had similar design characteristics but as related by Road and track magazine in 1966, the Alfa Romeo engine was notably much more oversquare...78cm x 52cm (the same as an Abarth v8 never raced) whereas the ATS was 66cm x 54.6cm to name one difference.
So as you stated there is room for doubt and I merely showed an article with another opinion about the origin. Maybe in all truth it was a joint effort but it is not easy to definitely say who is right in my opinion.

By the way the specifications of the Lemans tipo 33 car is much appreciated and since I speak fluent Italian not a problem for me to understand.
03-04-2016 03:56 PM
ARGTAReg
33 Le Mans engine

This discussion is taking senseless direction. To be honest it is reasonably irrelevant whom and when have realized the motor. The only fact that counts is that it was at Alfa Romeo feud. The solution for 33 came from Satta-Busso team on Luraghi’s request and it is sure that they could manage the whole project perfectly. The presence of Chiti and Autodelta was bonus in game and they certainly have discussed the whole idea together and (again on Luraghi’s insistence) left the realization to Chiti and his boys. The fact is that Chiti already had V8 nice and ready while hypothetic engine designed by Satta and Busso remain never explained part of project. If you consider my text for Bob Little’s “Inside the Walls” (T33 Story), you will see that I left the space for doubts, though my personal conviction is that it was Chiti’s baby. Too much similarity to ATS 100 and Ferrari 158 to be pure case. However, anyone is free to believe whatever wants. Just to clear the fact; Ray Hutton is surely fine journalist but he is not an Alfa Romeo expert and his statement means nothing to me. In this forum, the president of ASI (Italian historic Cars Association) and RIAR (Italian Alfa Romeo Registry) technical commission, late Maurizio Tabucchi, has been declared incompetent. Imagine Hutton’s authority! However, here is specification of 33 “Le Mans, long tail” engine that might be interesting for enthusiasts. (From “Alfa Romeo, vetture da competizione”)
I am sorry but it would be hard for me to translate it in English.

“Il motore, posto in posizione centrale, destinato alle vetture da competizione a Le Mans, era un 1995 cc V8 progettato dall'ing. Carlo Chiti, fondatore e responsabile della squadra corse Autodelta, il reparto corse dell'Alfa Romeo. Autentico gioiello tecnologico, costruito interamente in alluminio e magnesio, disponeva di impianto di iniezione meccanica indiretta Lucas, lubrificazione a carter secco, quattro alberi a camme in testa, e sedici candele (2 per cilindro).
Qui sono i dati:
---Motore V8 di 90°; Alesaggio 78 x Corsa 52,2; Cilindrata Unitaria cc. 249,25.
---Cilindrata totale cc.1995; Area stantuffo 47,76 cmq.
---Rapporto Corsa / Diametro 0,669
---Rapporto Corsa / Lunghezza di biella 2,31; Rapporto Compressione 10,7:1
---Potenza max. per la corsa delle 24 Ore di Le Mans, contenuta in 255 Cv-DIN a 9.400 giri.
---Potenza specifica (x Le Mans) 127,5 Cv / litro
---Coppia e regime corrispondente 20,7 Kgm-DIN a 7.500 giri.
---Metri al secondo pistoni 16,3
---Consumo specifico 250 gr. / Cv / h.
---Consumo lubrificante inferiore a 100 gr. / h.
---Monoblocco in alluminio con aspirazione centrale e scarichi esterni.
---Disassamento tra i cilindri 21 mm.
---Albero motore in acciaio di "tipo piatto" con volantino smorzatore e manovelle affiancate.
---Supporti di banco 5, Diametro mm. 60, Spessore mm. 21 (i 2 esterni ed il centrale) gli altri mm. 18
---Dimensione perni di manovella; Diametro mm. 45 - spessore mm. 20
---Dimensione spinotti Diametro mm. 20
---Cuscinetti di banco e di biella marca Wanderwell a guscio sottile
---Spinotti con boccola in bronzo; Testate in Alluminio con camera di scoppio emisferica
---Pistoni a pattino in alluminio con teste bombate e 3 segmenti di cui 2 di tenuta ed 1 raschiaolio - marca Borgo.
---Bielle in acciaio con distanza tra i centri di mm. 120
---Camicie in ghisa riportate di tipo umido; Raffreddamento ad acqua con 2 radiatori laterali e con vaso di espansione. Pressione di funzionamento 0,9 mm. di colonna d'acqua. Capacità circuito litri 13.
---Distribuzione 2 valvole per cilindro e 4 assi a camme. Comando nella parte anteriore del blocco cilindri di tipo misto con treno di ruote dentate e catene.
---Alberi a camme in acciaio da cementazione e su 5 supporti.
---Angolo tra le valvole 48° ( 23° per l'aspirazione e 25° per lo scarico )
---Diametro valvole; Aspirazione 40,5 mm. e Scarico mm. 36.
---Alzata mm. 10,2 - Molle richiamo 2 ad elica cilindrica
---Diagramma di distribuzione; Aspirazione anticipo 50° - ritardo 70°, Scarico anticipo 50° e ritardo 70°
---Alimentazione Iniezione indiretta Lucas. Anticipo Iniezione 90° dopo il p.m.s. in aspirazione.
---Accensione con 2 candele x cilindro diametro mm. 10; Lodge RL-49
---Anticipo accensione 32° / 33° con 2 distributori Marelli ad 8 uscite e 4 bobine Marelli con transistorizzazione Bosch.
---Ordine di accensione; numerazione dei cilindri dal davanti e cilindri di destra con numero pari: 1-8-3-6 4-5-2-7
---Lubrificazione a carter secco e radiatore olio con 1 pompa di mandata e 2 di recupero. Capacità olio 15 Kg. Filtraggio in parallelo con filtri.
---Aspirazione di tipo monocilindrico - Scarichi tipo 4 in 1
---Accoppiamento motore e cambio diretto - Frizione a comando idraulico
---Cambio Colotti a 6 marce + retromarcia di tipo in cascata con ingranaggi a denti dritti ed innesti a denti frontali senza sincronizzatori e comando centrale
---Rapporti = I° 3,25 - II° 2,18 - III° 1,6 - IV° 1,3 - V° 1,12 - VI° 0,96
---Velocità max. singole marce; 88 - 131 - 179 - 220 - 256 - 298 Km/h
---Coppia di riduzione a dentatura spirale - Denti 11/42 pari a rapp. 3,08
---Differenziale autobloccante ZF a pioli.”
03-03-2016 11:31 PM
PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistair Muir View Post
You can see why they needed twin plugs to get everything out of them. Look at those piston tops !! Combustion chamber cut in half..
Not as bad as the Nord engine surely ... ?
Pete
03-03-2016 02:07 PM
Alistair Muir Blimey, I'd make a complaint about the late delivery. Just kidding..

That settles a great deal for this long thread.
03-03-2016 01:14 PM
alfettapb Just received my copy of Autocar of 10th September 1970 in which the Alfa Romeo tipo 33 history is told in detail until this date and the article by Ray Hutton clearly states "...though Chiti is himself an engine designer, the 90 degree v8 four camshaft power unit was the work of Orazio Satta Puliga , "father" of the Giulietta and now the chief of the Alfa Romeo experimental department, and Giuseppe Busso. Other aspects of the cars design cannot be attributed fairly to any one person, having been jointly developed by Autodelta and Alfa Romeo's experimental department.." to which I can add that the magnesium castings were an idea of Busso.
01-25-2016 11:59 PM
Alistair Muir You can see why they needed twin plugs to get everything out of them. Look at those piston tops !! Combustion chamber cut in half..
01-25-2016 02:38 PM
ARGTAReg
33 engine

Well, this is not cerainly the proof, but...
01-14-2016 03:01 PM
alfettapb Regarding the origins of the engine this debate was made before in other threads I seem to recall but gtv2000 expressed the same feelings I had since I have both the book "Nel cuore dell' Alfa" by Busso which quite clearly states how Busso was unhappy that Chiti was given the engine when Busso's team had projected it. Indeed in the same book Busso explains how he researched the magnesium castings for the chassis from France subsequently made there and used on the race car. So much of the initial projection of the tipo 33 race car was in my opinion done in house headed by Busso/Satta. When Autodelta took ownership of the project surely Chiti could have developed and changed the engine according to best principles (learned from previous experience) but the skeletal framework of the engine was not his nor part of an earlier engine in my opinion.
One has to also consider when designing the new race engines there will in my humble opinion always be parts/sections that remind one of other previous engines, especially in this case other Italian engines so new engines could use a similar (but improved) evolutionary layout unless the design is completely revolutionary.
11-06-2015 08:34 AM
DPeterson3 Some of this thread brings to mind the picture of John Nash's garage in "A beautiful mind"
11-06-2015 12:06 AM
ARGTAReg
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
Pete
I agree!
11-05-2015 10:21 PM
PSk It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
Pete
11-05-2015 03:41 PM
Gabor K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Hi Gabor,
Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities.
Interesting, but as far as I know very little of the internals of th ATS 100 engine, I can say very little about the similarities except they both are twin cam V8s.

The tipo 33.2 engine I would rather say has a gear drive of the cams as only the first leg of the cam drive system is with chain, the rest is with gears up to the cams. This is completely different from the Montreal cam drive which is with chains all the way.
Can you confirm that the ATS engine has the same gear drive arrangement as the Tipo 33.2 ? Actually I have only seen this arrangement on the Alfa Tipo 33.2, but have there been others?

G.
11-05-2015 02:10 PM
ARGTAReg
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
ARGTAReg,

I must say this discussion would look much more pleasant to me if you could refrain from pontificating against other knowledgeable people (and you did so at your own expense with Martin in the discussion over GTA/SAs) based on your admiration for the late Tabucchi.

Not only was Tabucchi not so much recognized for the accuracy of his research (see 1990s La Manovella about his 2-volumes "Alfa Romeo di produzione and his invention of a "forgotten" Alfa which was, in the end, an old Darracq design updated), but you seem quite selective in your reading.

I must correct you about "Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography)".



And, if it's not specific enough:


While Collins' and McDonough's book on 33s is at least as much packed with errors as Tabucchi's, they remark on page 18:


I reckon that further in the book, they make confusing statements about the engine's origin, and BTW report having seen "castings for a 2-litre V8 produced during the 1950s, again for a stillborn passenger/GT car".

I have myself researched the Arese archives for an history of the Alfa factory in the 40s and 50s, and didn't came across any plan for such a car. That doesn't rule out that the castings do exist, but I'm in doubt which project they can have been related to.
I am sorry if my comments sounds like papal edicts to you. It is due to my modest English, not my intention. However, I have to admit that our points of view (and sources) are profoundly different.
11-05-2015 02:02 PM
ARGTAReg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
ARGTAReg : If you have photos of the 1964 ATS 1,5L V8 engine from an overhaul or technical drawing, it would be interesting to compare with the insides of the Tipo 33 engine. We know little about the ATS engine, but something about the Tipo 33 engine here. So more info on the ATS engine is what we need!

G.
Hi Gabor,
I have numerous photos of ATS T100, but none of them is particulary good for confronting. However, here they are and (much better for the purpose) Ferrari 156 (mainly Chiti’s project) and Ferrari 158 (started by Chiti and then finished by Forghieri) that is 1,5 liter V8. As you can see, 156 engine is V120°, nothing like V90° of T33, while 158 engine is V90°, 8cyl. and almost identical architecture as T33. Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities. It is clear that those engines are close relatives, beside the fact that Chiti was among the most brilliant racing engine designer ever, and those motors (except ATS) confirms that.
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome