|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|01-29-2014 10:10 AM|
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
|01-27-2014 08:20 PM|
Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione
Originally Posted by Borzacchini Jr View Post
Yes, a better title for the car would be "Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione". But as the thread is called "Giulia Sprint GTAm Prototype", I would like to refer to that, when we are talking about this thread. Otherwise people will not find the thread although the title "Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione" fits better in my opinion.
About the three engines; that is what my source "Alleggerita" says about this specific 1500cc 16V Iniezione. The source doesn't specify 1500cc engines with other configurations like carburettors instead of fuel injection/8V instead of 16V/wide cylinderheads instead of narrow heads. I have seen boat engines with that kind of configurations on several occasions.
|01-27-2014 02:40 PM|
About 1 of 5 GTA's now in existance was ORIGINAL, 4 of 5 are copy, later rebuild, evocation, and other...
Some mounth ago I saw a GTA all alluminium body 8 spark, lot of original old spares, but... but... more and more the win and document say it's a GTA original... but but..
the original car with same win number was outside Italy since 1970's.... The car was sold in France with Italian papers say it's a 105.32 with 613xxx win and engine 00502 A...
The biggest fake ever seen!!!
Have a good luck finding a GTA...
|01-27-2014 11:31 AM|
Hi Olaf, just to return to the topic. I was thinking about the part of your analyses where is indicated the possibility that “only three engines were produced it this configuration”. Well, though I didn’t understand the meaning of “this configuration” (1.5 l. displacement ? or 16V ? or 1.5 l. with 16V?) there are some questions about that engine and its later use in Autodelta. Having in mind the fact that majority of 3 Point racing boats were Alfa Romeo powered (about 80%) and that year production was ca.30 units from all builders (in the ‘70ties) remain the number of approximately 10-15 for 1.5 l. class using AR Giulia 1600 minored to 1500. As certainly more than three declared 1500 GTA engine (Abbate, Celli, Molinari, Lucini & Frigerio,Telaroli…), seems that number of 3 produced engines remain restrictive and only if particular engine in our topic was different from others in its architecture, that number could be considered. Few engines for boat racing were described as 4V for cylinder so it was not rarity. Who produced them if not Autodelta? Was it AR Centro Sperimentazioni of other private tuners as Monzeglio or Conrero? As those engines were requested it is logic that Autodelta got its interest in producing them. In those years I was pretty often in Chiti’s company but he never talk about business or professional quests and sincerely, I have never heard about nautical version of Giulia engine then. Anyhow, I think that we should reconsider the possible number of produced engines with 1.5 l. with or without 16V head.
About 603xxx. I have no reason to doubt the GTV6SA story about that car, and though I have never seen old material used in experimental vehicles, I accept his version (or the one that previous owner told to him). For me it is strange that large fenders (welded!) on a steel body were used before the idea of widened body matured in Autodelta. The story of stronger body is out of question as SA engine was put in peraluman 1300 body without serious problems (if not space). If it was later, than 1750-2000 engine was reality and 1500 on FIA 13 wheels, remain strange experiment (with 16V?!). But everything is possible. And for the end the question of name. It is clear that only the 105.51 injection version for US market, deriving from EU 105.44 could be called GT Am(erica), and so, any previous experimental model should be called in different way. The first two 2000 engine cars were present in Tour De Corse, (1970, with Lucas and not SPICA injection in that occasion), build on 1300 bodies with fenders but different from later models. So, even this part of the story is unusual, as 603xxx presents already mature form of fenders and 13’’ wheels (those on Tour De Corse were 14’’). Again, if we accept the 603xxx as Autodelta experimental machine, we must find another name for it. As for the history, only 105.51 with few 105.44 are considered GT Am. The rest are accepted cars that match the standards for homologation. I do agree that GT Am is just a convenience and not a specific model, but at least, we have to remain fair to its origins.
|01-26-2014 02:44 PM|
Dear hunttheshunt, the fault is not mine but of Giorgio Marzolla that wrote the wrong book(about Angelini) and Stefano d’Amico and RIAR that have published it. For major details see the part Angelini, page 3, post N°40, in this forum where you could find the same photo in color. In fact, the data to correct is that it was not 1300 minored to 1100, but 2000 minored to 1100 and equipped with Garrett building up to 340 HP (Marzolla stated). Also for TS 4V, yes , Angelini did 1600 engine for Giulio De Angelis for his 3P racing boat, and also Chiti has made one experimental 1600 TS 16V that never entered in production. Here is address of Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo: R.I.A.R. Presso Alfa Romeo-Automobilismo Storico-Centro Direzionale-20020 Arese (Mi); fax. +39 029315564, so you can write to them, with request to correct the error in their book. The error about 2V instead of 4V head is mine and I have already explained it. And to finish, I have never tried to convince anyone in anything. I couldn’t care less
Warning! The photos below might be fake ones as I don’t know the source, but I found them in this form
P.S. Olaf you are abloslutely right. The only question is if you really consider that car GT Am? I tought that ortodox purist like you, accepts only 105.51 and in extreme neccessity 105.44
|01-26-2014 12:18 PM|
Please start a seperate thread if you want to talk more about Angelini engines/cylinderheads and other interesting stuff. We are discussing a "Giulia Sprint GTAm Prototype" here.
|01-26-2014 04:30 AM|
|Alex||I would quite like to know which foundry in the UK was commissioned by Angelini for his heads. Makes me wonder if the patterns still exist ....|
|01-26-2014 03:50 AM|
Originally Posted by Borzacchini Jr View Post
This engine NEVER ever is a 4v turbo engine with whatever displacement you talk about; it looks like a 2v-TS from an AR 75 TS with a retro-fit turbocharger. Intake m/fold and everything at this side look very, very standard equipment from a Series IV Spider. Count the numbers of plug leads so you should believe a 4v head could get into troubles fitting two plugs and 4 valves into one c/chamber. For which reason this should have happened is secondary also; especially regarding the fact Angellini heads always featured sophisticated design work very comparable to Cosworth heads. If only AD would have cloned the Angellini style....
|01-26-2014 03:44 AM|
|hunttheshunt||There are no 16v-heads; the technical term is always directed by the number of valve per cylinder unit - so we´re talking about 2v or 4v-heads. Because an 8cyl-2v-engine also has 16 valves as summa summarum !|
|01-26-2014 03:33 AM|
Summary of what we know up to now about the Giulia Sprint GTAm prototype
Here is a summary of what we know up to now.
Please bare with me, first of all I am stating the facts that we have verified with the sources mentioned. Double checking is mentioned if necessary.
Verified facts about the car:
A Giulia Sprint GT (105.02) with chassisnumber AR 603142 from 1964 carries an Alfa Romeo engine with a “hanging oilfilter”, a 16 valve head with a waterpassage on the exhaust side, single plug ingnition, a Lucas sliding throttle fuel injection with a metal plenum. The bodyshell is a “widebody” version with roll cage without a slittone rear suspension. The car has the single brake booster (for a car with standing pedals). The lettering on the boodlid says 1.5 16V.
The chassis number AR 603142 was manufactured on the 27th April 1964 and was sold on the 30th April 1964 in Milan, Italy. The body colour of this Giulia Sprint GT was Alfa red and it had a blue interior.
I translated the RIAR (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) document from 1987 with internet so that we all can read it. The text says:
"With reference to your question, we are pleased to inform you that the Technical RIAR Board has reviewed the documentation sent to us and gave permission(?) for the approval of this/your? car.
Therefore, we send the nameplate marked no 258; approval for the engine only.
We remind you that the cost of any such plate is 50,000 (lire?). Please kindly sent the money by check or money order.
With the most cordial greetings,"
This car was offered at auction on the 18th of January 2014 by Coys with an estimate of 110K – 130K Euro’s. The car was sold for 87K Euro’s.
The book "Alleggerita" (1st edition from 1994) mentions a number of developments of which one was:
1500 Marino 91” – 16 valve
Designed and constructed by Autodelta in 1970
Displacement is 1496,8 cc bore x stroke 83,4 x 68,5 compression ratio not mentioned
Monosleeve, small cilinderhead, 16 valve, ?? injection, slide throttle, single plug ignition
Approx 180 bhp at 8000 rpm bench tested ??
Probably only three engines made
Pictures from Francesco Tavoletti show this engine
If the engine in the car is indeed a 1500cc Marino 91" (that has to be double checked) and if indeed Autodelta designed and developed this 1500cc Marino 91" engine in 1970 (it would be good to verify this through a second source) it is unlikely that AR 603142 Quote "was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system" Unquote as Coys states in the text (see below). That is because the GTAm car and engine were developed before 1970.
And because of the sequence in time (1500cc Marino 91" designed and developed in 1970) it is unlikely that Quote "A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA" Unquote because the GTA was first shown at the RAI autoshow in February of 1965 and thus designed and developed before that date.
Here is the complete text Coys used for this car
Quote ”Estimate: €110,000 - €130,000
In 1962, the successor for the very popular Giulietta series was introduced. This car was the Alfa Romeo Giulia, internally called the “Series 105”. The coupé of the 105 series, used the shortened floor pan from the Giulia Berlina and was designed by Bertone.
At the time, Alfa was very active in Motor sport. Autodelta , the racing division of Alfa, developed a car for competition that closely resembled to the road going model. These cars were named GTA instead of GT, the 'A' standing for “Alleggerita”, Italian for lightweight. The GTA was produced first in 1965 as a 1600 (1570 cc) and later as a 1300 Junior version. The GTA auto mobiles were also manufactured in either street (Stradale) or pure race (Corsa) trim.
The GTA had aluminium outer body panels instead of steel, (the inner steel panels were also of thinner gauge, the inner and outer panels were bonded and pop-riveted together), magnesium alloy wheels, clear plastic side windows, an aluminium rear upper control arm, different door handles and quarter window mechanisms, and lightweight interior trim. The engine had a new double ignition cylinder head (called twin plug, later in the eighties the system was called twin spark) cylinder head with a Marelli distributor from a Ferrari Dino, 45mm carburettors instead of 40mm and magnesium camshaft cover, sump, timing cover and bell housing. The transmission gear ratios were closer than standard and the gears were machined for lightness and quicker shifting. In full race form this engine could produce up to 170 hp. The 1600 GTA did not have a brake booster and had a thicker radiator than the standard vehicle. For homologation 500 cars were made for racing and road use.
The car in our auction is a rather special one, it is basically a Giulia Sprint GT but it was heavily modified in period to race specification just as the the forthcoming GTA´s was. It was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system.
This engine was very powerful, producing 208 bhp as opposed to the later GTAm´engines that produced 150- 160 bhp. It proved too expensive for Autodelta who did all the development work and who opted for the GTAm s twin spark design instead. This prototype engine was, according to the vendor, later used in a World endurance speed boat record attempts by boat maker Molinari.
A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA and this prototype´s mechanical specifications are similar to that of the quickest race prepared GTA´s, it also has a shorter ratio gearbox. This car is an important part of post-war Alfa Romeo history and is also certified by Registro Alfa Romeo.” Unquote.
|01-25-2014 02:57 PM|
Talking about 16V engines derivate from Giulia 105, without considering the only really well operating one that was Franco Angelini’s 1300 and 1600 16V would be serious injustice. Self made Roman ingenious car builder with sense for “right” solution, has produced 16 valve engines used both, in car and boat competitions. Without homologation possibilities for group 2, his engines were used only in Gr.5 and hill climb, producing respectively 184 HP in 1300, and 220 HP in 1600 version. The fact is that Angelini has made his engines before Autodelta tested its 1300 16V testa stretta. Angelini’s engines were single spark versions and also twin spark variant for Giulio De Angelis 3P racing boat, that won Italian and also Europian championship producing 174 HP at 8500/8800 revs. As GTV6SA pointed correctly, the sand casts were unreliable and that’s why Angelini ordered in Great Britain some 25 heads whose casting was much better, as he couldn’t find private producer in Italy to match his quality requests. He has also installed turbo chargers on some of his engines. Famous is his 16V 1300 minored to 1100 and equipped with Garret turbine that produced 250 HP and was installed in GTAJ Gr.5 known as “Bomber” because of sound that produced during races. It was clear that Franco Angelini has discovered successful formula for 4V head as his engines worked without problems. The answer might be in his almost maniacal need for precision in everything, as he produced himself each part of the engine and then assembled all parts in the external shells that were Autodelta provenience. That made his engines Swiss watches alike. Chiti had excellent opinion about Angelini and his work, though he preferred Conrero as tuner. The image of “Sor Franco” as “his boys” (Giunti, Rinaldi, Pelatelli, Francisci, Rampa, Verna, Radicella and many others) used to call him, with “cicchetto” (small manual pump with fuel to start injection engine when it is still cold) is familiar to anyone that has visited circuits of that period. He was like close parent to all his pilots, rugged in manners but deeply human and ready to finish each contest in tavern with glass of good vine from “Castelli”…
1600 16V GTA engine (version for single seater F car)
1100 16V GTA Garret turbine equipped engine
Giulio De Angelis 3P boat with 1600 GTA engine
Gino Rampa’s 1600 Gr.5 Silhouette GTA
|01-25-2014 02:49 PM|
Thanks for the info!
Originally Posted by Alleggerita View Post
Thanks for the info, Alleggerita!
To all our members;
Based on the info in the 1st edition of "Alleggerita", the 1500cc Marino engine was developed in 1970. If the engine in AR 603142 is indeed a 1500cc Marino engine, you can draw your own conclusion.
What we have to double check is the development date of the 1500cc Marino 91" engine from another source and the verification that the engine in AR 603142 is indeed a 1500cc Marino 91" engine.
By the way, the 1500cc Marino 91" engine is a special breed because probably only three units were produced.
|01-25-2014 01:40 PM|
I took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.
This was one the later cars that Haehn campaigned and that he then ran himself again in early Historic Racing, if I remember correctly, sometimes towing it with his Villa d'Este Coupe.
When I talked to him at the time, he actually mentioned that that type of engine was also run with long stacks - like the Marine engines - that required the side of the inner fender to be cut out with air being drawn from the wheel well.
Originally Posted by Zagato_Olaf View Post
|01-25-2014 01:01 PM|
origin of the engine of AR 603142
Concerning AR 603142, here is some info on the origin of the engine.
I will add a list of displacements with bore and stroke later.
Developments at Autodelta:
Source: Chapter “Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines” in the book “Alleggerita” by Tony Adriaensens, 1st edition from 1994
First of all, this chapter contains a photograph of Giulia Sprint GTA, chassisnumber AR 613124 (Anders Ericsson) with an 16 valve engine and a plenum (airbox) that looks a lot like the engine and airbox on AR 6130124. A date is not mentioned.
Our fellow member "Alleggerita" told us that he took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.
See 1600F2 in 1967 and Marino 91” in 1970.
The Original list has been removed in favour of a more complete list.
You can find that list here:
|01-25-2014 05:08 AM|
This is probably not the place to discuss racing GTAs/GTAms etc. but from my, albeit limited experience of Italian hill climbs, the competition run new, i.e. brand new, Lotus 26Rs, and Lotus Cortinas, with all the latest technology, so it is hardly surprising that repro heads/engines are used in Alfas.
I, too would run a complete, 100% replica if I felt it would improve my times!
|This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.|