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post #91 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 04:13 PM
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Well, we've returned from Road America once again with a broken race car. Webroke the transaxle flywheel housing late in the race on Saturday. Investigation revealed the right side front mounting bolts were missing. The crew made an epic repair with a used part rounded up in Milwaukee. We turned 2 or 3 laps on Sunday before it broke again. We've got more than just missing bolt issues. A full autopsy is scheduled for next week. When we were running, we ran well. Our fast lap was a 3:15 which isn't too bad considering the weather. All of our drivers exited the car with a huge smile (except me, it broke on my stint).

We strongly suspect a misalignment issue, does anyone have a method for confirming the alignment of the drivetrain? Also it was noted that the rear guibo did not appear to be in 1 plane, IE it looked as if the transaxle was too far to the rear of the car, causing it to stretch. Has anyone experienced this?
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post #92 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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I have seen that on my rear guibo, the center bush was not seated properly/misaligned...had to re-do with hose clamps strapped around to get it right

Al
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post #93 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 06:50 PM
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Lemons/Chump Problems

I don't want to sound heartless here. However, I just don't understand why anyone would race (chump/Lemons/anyevent) without being pretty certain that the car is ready to go. Perhaps you were certai? We have raced our Milano with Chumpcar at Road America twice now and really had couple of small problems. We also raced with Lemons another 4 weekends and had minimal problems (other than a crash which took us out in one race). You are talking about aproximately 1000 race miles full out. If your car is not ready it will show. We pay lots of attention to the wheel bearings, driveshaft, transaxle, brakes, alignment, cam belts, cam tensioner etc etc etc.....All of us here know that the wheel bearings and driveshaft/transaxle are potential failure points on these cars. My experience is that it costs about 3-5k and untold hours to do one of these weekends. Why not drive whole race? The cars can make a race....easily...you just need to make sure everything is ready. Don't believe the lie...the guys/gals that consistently finish in these races are super meticulous in preperation. Ok off my soapbox.

I am not sure what you are running (Alfetta/Milano/GTV6) but Milano's and GTV6's have a bit of length adjustment via a sliding shaft with a set-bolt in the front of the driveshaft. We always loosen the set-bolt after installing the driveshaft and let the car idle a bit before tightening it up. Make sure all of your engine mounts are good. We through-bolt the the front transaxle /clutch housing mounts as these tend to tear up. Keep in mind that some of these front transaxle mounts have spacers on them. You may have the wrong ones (too short or too tall). I would think that a long broom handle would show your engine/transaxle alignment I have not experienced that type of problem before. But your adjustment will probably have to be at the front transaxle mounts. A bit of mis-alignment is probably ok, but if your dounuts look distorted they will not last long. Make sure that the front and rear centering bearings are good and greased too. Additonally, in my experience most of the misalignment imbalance issues come from a bent driveshaft .....it is surprisingly easy to do as the driveshaft has thin wall tubing...Lots to think about here! Read Greg Gordons driveshaft "how to" on his site. Great information and much better presented than what I have written here.

All the best.

David Alexander
Riverside, IL

87 Milano Silver w/3.0 164S motor (Lemons/Chump "racecar")
82 GTV6 w/3.0 24 valve Q motor (street car)
76 Alfetta GT unfinished race car project
77 Guilia Nuova Super (street car)
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post #94 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 07:58 PM
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Excerpted from an email I sent.



As usual I have lots of thoughts.



I have broken 3 clutch covers on my GTV6 EP race car. Conversely I have never ever broken anything in the driveline on my LeMons Milano in 4 years of 3 to 4 races per year. The Milano puts about 144 horsepower to the wheels and we shift at 7000+ RPM on a regular basis. We also have carried 2nd and 3rd gear into the rev limiter at about 7200 to 7300 RPM. We kind of have to shift so high because that’s where the power is and there is no torque to speak of with a 2.5 liter motor.

The GTV6 is a more serious race car and puts about 180 HP to the wheels. I had someone else taking care of the car the first year I owned it (Big Mistake) and they put the driveshaft together wrong twice and that is what broke the clutch cover. I messed up one myself. I now shift the GTV6 at 6600 to 7000 RPM and try to keep to the bottom of that span. I am gun shy after breaking the clutch covers.

So here goes my theories backed up with a few facts.

The thing everyone focuses on as the weak link is the clutch cover, it is not the weakest link though. It is definitely not very robust, that’s why autodelta designed a stronger clutch cover for their transaxle race cars.

The problem is what Alfa calls the split bearing. I have put together and freshened many Alfa drive shafts under the car through these years and what I have l learned is to never do it that way anymore. Now I assemble the entire driveshaft out of the car and install it in one piece. The problem with doing it under the car is that it is nearly impossible to install the split bearing correctly. Lots of times the outer race(split part) gets pushed off the spherical inner part. In a street car it can work for years assembled incorrectly. In a race car the center guibo and center bearing will not break anything if assembled with the split bearing pushed off; there will just be a lot of additional vibration. However if there is anything wrong with the rearmost split bearing or the nub on the driveshaft it press fits onto, the driveshaft will wobble at high RPM and will very soon crack the clutch cover. That split bearing is the only thing that holds the joint of the rear driveshaft in radial alignment with the clutch cover yoke. The Guibo just transfers power (torque)

In my car a very slightly bent rear drive shaft made the split bearing work or fret on the nub that it presses onto. That eventually made the fit of the split bearing inner race very loose on its mounting, then the driveshaft started whipping, then the clutch cover cracked all the way around while I was accelerating down the back straight at Sebring at 6700 RPM and about 100 MPH. It let out a hell of a bang and vibration. It pictured below. Some other things in the pictures, drilled transaxle mounts and tabs welded to the transaxle for tear away winglets to channel air up to the rear brakes.



I’ll bet you when you take apart your driveshaft and check the split bearing you will find a problem with the split bearing. The picture shows a pushed off outer race and the inner race is ready to fall of the nib.The split bearing inner race must be a light press fit onto the driveshaft.



The other thing you need to do is to put an indicator on the input shaft to the transaxle and spin it from one or both of the axle stubs. When the clutch cover cracks you can bend the input shaft of the transaxle. You should probably check both transaxle. The picture is from me checking mine in Sebring, it was OK.


So many of these cars have been taken apart and put back together so many times you can never assume that anything is put together correctly. So I have used the workshop manuals to make sure the Guibo bolts are oriented correctly etc. On both cars I bought the kit that centerline sells that has all the guibos and bearing to rebuild the entire driveshaft and installed them. It is cheap insurance. These drivelines are not bullet proof and they can take you and your car out of a race after we all spend so much time building and prepping them.

Some other info:
Some people have had the guy at “Wenco” check and balance the drive shaft, he is out on the west coast. I can’t vouch for him but some people have used him.

The GTV6 needs to have the “extra” plates on the transaxle mounts cut off to have the correct driveline alignment. The mounts available now seem to be for the Milano which have the double plates. This is because of a difference in heights of the de-Dion cross member. Don’t mix up the spacer plates for the de-Dion cross member from a GTV6 and Milano’s they are of different heights 10mm on GTV6 and 15mm on the Milano.

On both cars I have drilled a 3/8” hole through the transaxle mounts then installed a ¼” bolt. This stabilizes the front of the transaxle. Don’t install a bolt larger than that though, the vibration transferring through the mounts if you do will shake the car to pieces.

See elsewhere about keeping the pinch bolt up at the front guibo loose and letting the driveshaft length adjust itelf after mounting it.

Bottomline is if anything looks wrong, it is wrong. Stop what you are doing and find out why the giubo's are stretched or whatever, never assume it is OK. On the rearmost Giubo you can actually mount it to the driveshaft and shine a little flashlight into the hole and see if the split bearing is installed correctly.

Another time saver is to tack weld the spacers for the de-dion chassis crossmember to the cross member so you can quickly install and drop the de-dion. Just make sure you have them centered.

You could have some other issues but I would check these out first.

Some people in Australia have made steel “girdle” reinforcements for covers and Richard Jemison has made up covers with welded reinforcements which has worked fine but the alloy of the covers is not great for welding. A guy in Europe has made up a mold for a copy of the Autodelta cover as well but I think it is big money. But I think the stock cover is OK if everything else is up to speed. Autodelta needed their reinforced covers because they wound there motors up so high.

Postscript, I bought a aftermarket clutch cover for the GTV6 from a guy in the UK who cast up some copies of a works part.I shift as I high as I want now. It required alot of grinding gussets to fit and is expensive. But how much money was I really saving being under the car on a race weekend with a busted clutch cover?

Good luck.
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1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)

Last edited by GregSef; 05-24-2013 at 07:30 AM. Reason: added good stuff
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post #95 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-24-2013, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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Clutch housing problems

John,
Read everything Greg has to say in the post above and then reread it. Also look at post #33 in this thread. This is the same problem we had last year at the Sears Point race. I'm pretty sure if you look at the end of your drive shaft it will be messed up. The Alfettas don't have the pinch bolt on the drive shaft but the rear mount is slotted and you can loosen all the transaxle mount bolts and move the tranny forward on the mounts if you need to take the strain off the giubos. We used to do this on the Alfetta we ran. Also drive shaft balance is very important in these cars. If you can't find a shop in your area that can balance it there are a couple of shops in the San Francisco Area that are well versed in Alfa transaxle drive shafts. If you need it I still have a complete drive shaft for an early Alfetta.

Wes
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post #96 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-23-2013, 04:24 PM
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Greg and Wes-
Once again thank you for your help, it is a pretty awesome deal to have guys with experience share their secrets.
I've disassembled the driveline and here's what I've found
-Clutch housing unidentifiable as such
-one ear broken off of the front trans case
-rear giubo to trans yoke alignment hole badly ovaled
-rear giubo installed incorrectly (tabs not placed in corresponding holes in the yokes)
-rear driveshaft alignment stud shows wear on the end. The surface the split bushing rides on seems OK
-rear giubo split bushing appear to be intact
-rear driveshaft is gouged from the giubo tabs impacting the end of the shaft after the failure of the clutch housing

I've finished stripping the parts car and have rounded up almost all of the parts needed to repair. I hope to have it back together by next week.

I have a related question you guys might be able to answer. In the trunk of the parts car was an iron cased differential section for a transaxle car. I was told that there were some automatic car parts in the mix, is this what I have found? Are the ring and pinion from the auto cars a direct swap for the manuals?

Thanks again!
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post #97 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-24-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman911 View Post
Greg and Wes-
Once again thank you for your help, it is a pretty awesome deal to have guys with experience share their secrets.
I've disassembled the driveline and here's what I've found
-Clutch housing unidentifiable as such
-one ear broken off of the front trans case
-rear giubo to trans yoke alignment hole badly ovaled
-rear giubo installed incorrectly (tabs not placed in corresponding holes in the yokes)
-rear driveshaft alignment stud shows wear on the end. The surface the split bushing rides on seems OK
-rear giubo split bushing appear to be intact
-rear driveshaft is gouged from the giubo tabs impacting the end of the shaft after the failure of the clutch housing

I've finished stripping the parts car and have rounded up almost all of the parts needed to repair. I hope to have it back together by next week.

I have a related question you guys might be able to answer. In the trunk of the parts car was an iron cased differential section for a transaxle car. I was told that there were some automatic car parts in the mix, is this what I have found? Are the ring and pinion from the auto cars a direct swap for the manuals?

Thanks again!
--one ear broken off of the front trans case.
So the transaxle is toast?

-rear giubo to trans yoke alignment hole badly ovaled
Never saw that happen yet, You're talking about the hole in steel insert of Giubo that yoke male member fits into? If so it means that means giubo and yoke could move independently. My moneys on improper installation.

-rear giubo installed incorrectly (tabs not placed in corresponding holes in the yokes)
See the smoke curling out of the barrel? (smoking gun)

-rear driveshaft alignment stud shows wear on the end. The surface the split bushing rides on seems OK
Weird, was there something extra in the bore like a remnant of an old split bushing? On second thought perhaps the afore mentioned yoke alignment protusion was able to touch this part while the whole mess was wobbling around?

-rear giubo split bushing appear to be intact
Good. And still on its inner race and that it a light press fit onto the nub?

-rear driveshaft is gouged from the giubo tabs impacting the end of the shaft after the failure of the clutch housing.

So you are using new rear section? Pay attention to phasing and bolt direction and washer and fastener orientation.

KEY POINT: If anything looks like its being stretched or wrong, it is wrong.

Take a picture of the diff you are referring to and post or email it. Not aware of any iron transaxles. Doesn't mean there wasn't one. Ring and pinion swaps are really over my head. But the Alfa Sei Diff was just a diff and no transaxle. Never came to America though. RJ might be the go to guy for that.

Greg

PS post some pictures of your broken parts..

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #98 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-24-2013, 03:43 PM
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Pictures as requested


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post #99 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-24-2013, 06:42 PM
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And the mystery differential




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post #100 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-25-2013, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Transaxle case

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
--one ear broken off of the front trans case.
So the transaxle is toast?
No, just need to replace the front case half. The front half of the case doesn't affect the pinion preload and can be changed without any issues. Just make sure your clutch pivot is the correct style.

That diff. definitely looks like the rear section of a automatic transaxle.

Swapping ring and pinions is a pain in the a$$. There are a bunch of special tool needed to do the job right so that the r&p last.

Something doesn't look right about the end of the driveshaft. Can you shoot a picture of it lengthwise please?

Wes
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post #101 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-28-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfaguy35 View Post
No, just need to replace the front case half. The front half of the case doesn't affect the pinion preload and can be changed without any issues. Just make sure your clutch pivot is the correct style.

That diff. definitely looks like the rear section of a automatic transaxle.

Swapping ring and pinions is a pain in the a$$. There are a bunch of special tool needed to do the job right so that the r&p last.

Something doesn't look right about the end of the driveshaft. Can you shoot a picture of it lengthwise please?

Right. Forgot about that. Pinion depth stays the same if you use the same rear and intermediate plate. The clutch pivot bolt can be changed back and forth from Alfetta style to Milano/GTV6.

I never saw a automatic transmission case before. Interesting. Wonder why Alfa chose to cast it in iron? Had to be a good reason. I'm surprised that no one has used that part and installed a u joint yoke into it and a fancy transmission up front.

That driveshaft is pretty banged up. It looks to me like someone tried to drive the car after the clutch cover fractured.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #102 of 348 (permalink) Old 05-30-2013, 09:23 AM
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Hey guys

Was planning to run the Orange #27 "slammer" car at the Charlotte Chump race. Got the driveshaft back in it, cleaned injectors back on and fired it up, car developed a fuel leak in the conduit that the PO's had run the fuel lines through, that combined with still one dead injector and some smoke from the exhaust have me going to "plan b" the trusty but boring e30.

I think I am going to sell the orange car. Built by an amateur team in Durham NC has run one chump and one LeMons. I bought the car after team members either got married, had kids, lost job, etc. They had just installed a "new" motor after having timing belt and seals done by Apex Vintage in Raleigh NC. The motor has good compression but does smoke some, the driveshaft was apart when I got the car, had Rod at Apex install the guibo's but have not road tested yet. I have too many race cars so someone email me off board and take this off my hands.

Tons of spares...

Thanks

Al Taylor
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post #103 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-03-2013, 07:10 AM
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Hi All,

I just inspected the driveshaft on my 24 Hours of LeMons Milano and the Center Giubo is showing some tears in it. The tears do not extend to the ID or OD but are crescent shaped and are new(ish)

This Giubo is one of the original ones that is labeled "JURID" and as far as I know was out of production a long time ago. Inventories of this part were running out last year or earlier.

This particular Giubo was installed 76 hours of racing earlier and has been in the car a little over a year.

The driveline in this car has never failed, nothing has ever broken despite the relentless punishment it takes but I have felt the driveshaft banging around on high RPM downshifting before turn in for the last two races.

An Alfa Supplier who's opinion I respect had told me a while back that a batch of new replacement center Guibo's made in Germany had been released and that they were failing at a high rate in street cars. Does anyone have any experience with the new Giubo's? Or offer any advice on alternatives?

This is a LeMons car so I not going to fabricate carbon a fiber one piece or any crazy alternatives. Is it possible to use the Alfetta center Giubo in these cars? (thicker at 1.5" versus 1") Any way to adapt the Mercedes flex disc?

I also have no time to fix this as I will be racing the car at Summit Point the weekend after next (July 14th- 16th)


Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #104 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-03-2013, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
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Center flex disc

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
Hi All,
An Alfa Supplier who's opinion I respect had told me a while back that a batch of new replacement center Guibo's made in Germany had been released and that they were failing at a high rate in street cars. Does anyone have any experience with the new Giubo's? Or offer any advice on alternatives?
Greg
Greg,

We have changed to a BMW giubo for the center. It is 4mm thicker but all you have to do is machine the rear flange on the front drive shaft where it slides on the splines. The new giubos are only $50 or so and we haven't had any problems with them.
See the thread below.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfe...riveshaft.html

Hope this helps.

Wes
Winner 24 Hours of Lemons, Finally
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post #105 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-15-2013, 10:51 AM
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Driveshaft

Well, I made an interesting discovery today. I picked up the rebuilt, rebalanced driveshaft with new giubos and attempted to put it all together. And failed. I had the same symptom of the shaft assembly appearing to be too short, IE the rear giubo would have to be stretched to seat on the trans yoke. I fussed and fidgeted and contemplated my navel. I finally pulled it all back apart and realized that the flywheel shaft was not seating in the centering bush on the giubo. I immediately accused the shaft of being mushroomed by a P/O, not so. My calipers showed that the centering bush was .02mm smaller in diameter than the shaft. A little precision machine work on the giubo and viola, it pushed on with a good push by hand. The giubo in question is a Malo Akron # 593006AGES and it states right on the box that it is for the Alfetta. It was obtained from one of the big two Alfa parts specialists. I guess the moral of the story is "trust but verify".
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