Lemons/Chump problems - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 10:51 AM
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Greg,

I've never seen a Zat tensioner until doing a timing belt and water pump in my daily driver Platinum a few months ago. It has one. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a LeMons car.

In my street GTV6, with a 3.0 and Jemison cams, we put a hydraulic tensioner back in place of the old mechanical tensioner. Just blocked off the oil feed hole.

In our LeMons Milano, we're running a mechanical tensioner. But we don't rev the pi$$ out of our motor like you do. Our optimal shift point is around 5700 rpm, and if I'm conserving fuel I'll shift below 5000 rpm. 13+ races on the car, we've never had a tensioner problem.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a fixed tensioner. We also run straight 50 weight oil. Once these cars are up to temp, they run 99% of their time under those conditions. So all of the benefits of the oil feed, springs, etc, is mostly wasted on a race motor. You're not daily driving your car on a cold New England morning, so dump all that crap and simplify things.

The real solution is to toss the 2.5 and throw in a 3.0 motor.

bs
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post #47 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 01:11 PM
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Tensioner?

Dont know...but the one on the GTV6 should be about 5k miles fresh...F.unny thing is the race car was out in the weeds so long I could not remember wehre it came from, pulled the tank, replaced all the rubber hoses, changed the oil and went racing. Shoulda got some better pads for that first race. The car must have had a fresh belt, WP, guibo's and mounts when I got it. The GTV6 just had the heads done when I got it, WP went out down in FLA for the grassroots thing, does not make sense. Why would a shop do the heads and not replace the WP??

Never had any tensioner issues but everything is stock, might be like the old BMW's I race if you take it just the tiniest bit over stock you break a rocker arm.


Al
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post #48 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-23-2012, 05:21 AM
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We just completed the ChumpCar double 7 at Road America. We managed to make it to the checkered both days, but barely. Here's the list of problems with our 2.0l Alfetta:

Disappearing brake pedal- rear brakes failed to stay adjusted. Plan to switch to Spider calipers.

Charging system failure- lost the voltage regulator at the same point in both races. Not sure how to proceed

Exhaust manifold tried to depart company with the engine. Lost 6 of 8 nuts. Added to the list of things to torque after the race

Miss fire and loss of power- at least partially related to the charging system failure. Low voltage followed by burning the points after hot wiring the alternator.

Dirty fuel tank- We had problems with clogging the pre pump filter earlier in the season. Removed the tank, cleaned it, re plumbed it with a 1 qt spin on filter. Checked the filter after the Saturday race and guess what we found.

Everything else worked as advertised. When the car was healthy it was a blast! Our hot shoe driver managed a 3:17 with the bend.
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post #49 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-23-2012, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bshorey View Post
Greg,

I've never seen a Zat tensioner until doing a timing belt and water pump in my daily driver Platinum a few months ago. It has one. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a LeMons car.

In my street GTV6, with a 3.0 and Jemison cams, we put a hydraulic tensioner back in place of the old mechanical tensioner. Just blocked off the oil feed hole.

In our LeMons Milano, we're running a mechanical tensioner. But we don't rev the pi$$ out of our motor like you do. Our optimal shift point is around 5700 rpm, and if I'm conserving fuel I'll shift below 5000 rpm. 13+ races on the car, we've never had a tensioner problem.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a fixed tensioner. We also run straight 50 weight oil. Once these cars are up to temp, they run 99% of their time under those conditions. So all of the benefits of the oil feed, springs, etc, is mostly wasted on a race motor. You're not daily driving your car on a cold New England morning, so dump all that crap and simplify things.

The real solution is to toss the 2.5 and throw in a 3.0 motor.

bs
I wound up modifying a hydraulic detensioner to make it into an adjustable fixed tensioner. I got some good advice from a few people. IAP and others sell the robust bearing that goes on that tensioner so it has a new bearing. Jason at Alfissimo has bearings and rebuild kits.

Funny thing is that I have been driving this car balls out for 4 years on the valve springs and other stuff it came with when I found it parked on the back lawn of the guy I bought it from. I tuned it up and it never ever let me down until 4 years into racing it, when a 22 year old head gasket began to leak a little.

So I think all the people who couldn't believe that we shift at 7000 + RPM all the time for 4 years telling me I was going to valve float a valve into a pistoon finally got to me and I uprated te valve springs,

But the 2.5 Liter has smaller lighter valves than the 3.0 liter, this was an unecessary modification that cost me two DNF's and a lot of bent valves and work. For the record I think the mechanical tensioner is OK for a stock street car, or you can adjust it all the way to take the spring out of the picture for a fixed action or go some of the other ways people have done. Belt technology has come a long way since the 1970's whem Busso designed the engine and detensioner.

So Brian, I geuss I should have just left the old springs in and run it no? But you know my middle name is Greg "f%&k with it" Seferian.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #50 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-26-2012, 02:57 PM
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Hey Guys

Even while trying to unload a bunch of my V6 stuff including my LeMons/Chump roadster I acquired the #27 "slammer" orange Milano LeMons car...it is much nicer than my current car and has lots of fresh parts. I plan to run it at the CHump VIR and Charlotte races.

I have so much V6 stuff it only makes sense to burn it up on the race track. The old "Black Barf-Cheddar" will be used for local rally crosses until something major breaks on it.

Anyone else planning to do the VIR races, my shop is 4 miles from the track and I have parts cars there....


Thanks

Al Taylor
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post #51 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-27-2012, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Bavman25 View Post
Hey Guys

Even while trying to unload a bunch of my V6 stuff including my LeMons/Chump roadster I acquired the #27 "slammer" orange Milano LeMons car...it is much nicer than my current car and has lots of fresh parts. I plan to run it at the CHump VIR and Charlotte races.

Anyone else planning to do the VIR races, my shop is 4 miles from the track and I have parts cars there....
Hi Al,

Which Milano is the car you are talking about? Is it those guys that were running it at CMP?

Are you going to do LeMons at CMP or just Chump?

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #52 of 348 (permalink) Old 11-27-2012, 06:33 AM
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The car ran CMP and Charlotte I believe. I only run Chumpcar...along with SCCA NASA SVRA etc...Lets just say I had a disagreement with Jay Lamm, who is a pretty good promoter but not much of an engineer.

Yall need to come down to VIR.

Al
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post #53 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 05:51 PM
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Anyone here running a 3.0? I am about to pick up a bunch of spares....might drop a 3 liter in next but I think would make sense to burn up all my 2.5's and sell off the "good" motors...Anyone running Motronic? I cruise a lot of junkyards and can pick up 164 parts pretty reasonably.

Al
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post #54 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 09:01 AM
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I have had a 3.0 liter S motor on an engine stand for a good 2 years now. I need to open it up and take a look around in it. But it is really hard to give up on my 2.5 liter motor in the LeMons Milano when it can run with everything except the big V8's and the turbocharged cheaters.

That said, there is no replacement for displacement...

I am just not looking forward to the new engine note when we have so many track workers coming to our Pasta parties and telling me " your car is the best sounding car out there" "Its awesome"

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #55 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavman25 View Post
Anyone here running a 3.0? I am about to pick up a bunch of spares....might drop a 3 liter in next but I think would make sense to burn up all my 2.5's and sell off the "good" motors...Anyone running Motronic? I cruise a lot of junkyards and can pick up 164 parts pretty reasonably.

Al
We are running a 3.0. I wouldn't waste my time with a 2.5. We've drag raced Greg Sef once or twice, I think the cars are fairly close, but I can also tell you that we're shifting at 5000 - 5500 RPM, and he's revving the bejesus out of his 2.5 (which I will admit is the best sounding LeMons car ever, east or west coast).

Greg drove our 3.0 once, and the best comment when he got out of it was "that rev limiter was effing killing me".

Couple of points of reference for you. First, the transaxle. We started life with the 3.55 limited slip. The 2.5 Milanos with the 4.10's could out drag us. When we swapped in a 4.10, we could for the most part out drag them. But we sacrificed mileage. With the 3.55 on the right track we could drive over 4 hours. With the 4.10 the most we've seen is 3:15. The car is more fun with the 4.10, and faster, but I think we'd be better off with the 3.55 and longer driving stints/less pit stops.

Second, the motor. We can go pretty fast and not push the 3.0 too hard at all. We've left in the stock ECU and rev limiter. In 5 years and 15 races, we've had *one* catastrophic engine failure, and that was a fuse/cooling fan problem that led to overheating. I'm pretty sure that motor would still be running if not for that fuse. Our second motor is holding up just fine since 2010, and probably 8-9 races. I've never so much as looked at a spark plug.

hth,

bs
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post #56 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 06:56 AM
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hmm...I have running 2.5's in each car and one spare with fresh heads....will probab ly be a while before I could swap in a 3L so I probably should just sell them.

I have to check out the rules, I thought the longest stint allowed was 3 hrs, I may be confused, would be nice to do the VIR 10 hour with 2 stops. Not sure what trans is in the orange car, will have to check that out.

Sound...yes, one of the reasons I continue to own V6 Alfa's. The exhaust needs work on the orange car, what set up do you guys use?? I would like a side exit to keep things out of the way in the back...


Thanks

Al
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post #57 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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Driving stints

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I have to check out the rules, I thought the longest stint allowed was 3 hrs, I may be confused, would be nice to do the VIR 10 hour with 2 stops. Not sure what trans is in the orange car, will have to check that out.
Al
Driving stints in Chump can't be more than two hours according to the rules. That and the mandatory 5 minute fuel stops are the big reasons we haven't run with them. We can run three hours plus on fuel (depending on the track) and can fuel the car in under 2 minutes. Take that away and you take away our big advantage and we have a hard time running with them on power with a stock 2.5 motor.

Wes
Winner 24 Hours of Lemons, Finally
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post #58 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 11:50 AM
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Interesting.....allowing longer stints evens the playing field as far as power goes...of course then people with juice will rig in a 35 gal cell....I won a NASA endurance season championship on mileage....used one less gallon an hour than the other team and that is all it took, well really came down to the fact they had to change pads in an 8 hour race and we didn't...seems like they would allow 3 hour stints as the less time in the pits the safer it is for everyone.


Al
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post #59 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-13-2012, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Lemons rules limit the fuel cell size at 24 gallons. I know that you had some differences with Jay but almost all the rule changes lately have been safety related and driven by the Insurance company. If that is what it takes to keep the series alive then so be it. At least I have a relatively cheap place to go racing.

Wes
Winner 24 Hours of Lemons, Finally
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post #60 of 348 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
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[QUOTE=Eman911;1190222]
Miss fire and loss of power- at least partially related to the charging system failure. Low voltage followed by burning the points after hot wiring the alternator.

Did a leak down on the engine today, results were not good. Pulled the head and the pistons, found broken compression rings on #2 and #4. I think I found the power loss!
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