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post #31 of 348 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 05:10 PM
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Anyone out there have a pair of spacers for the Brembo calipers? Mine were removed and lost by the previous owner so that he could use the non vented Alfetta rotors.
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post #32 of 348 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 05:13 PM
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Eman, sent you a PM on the wheels.
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post #33 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-15-2012, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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New car and drive shaft issuses

We finally finished the GTV6. We had to as we sold our old car to a group in Texas.

We ran the car at the Sears Pointless race a couple of weeks ago. We received a three lap penalty because Jay thought the car was "cheaty" and looked too nice.


Did I mention it was wet?? Saturday was ok once we made a few adjustments to the car like disconnecting both sway bars and dropping 10 lbs. of tire pressure.

Sunday was a different story. The day started with a damp but drying track. As the day went on the track was faster and faster. We had just put our 2nd driver in when he came back in with the car making noise. Not a good noise. Jacked the car up and found this. The piece that isn't in the picture is the part of the transaxle case itself that broke off. With Sears being our home track and it was only noon it was time to go to work. Two of the drivers went back to the shop to get another clutch housing and the spare transaxle. With all the parts at the track we can do a transaxle swap in about an hour and a half. This one took a little longer because we had to get the parts and put a clutch together but I think it was about two and a half hours and we were back on the track. We put the 2nd driver back in the car and we decided to shorten the stint so everybody got to drive in the dry. 2nd and 3rd driver's ran their stints and it was going well. The car was working well, had more power than the 4 cylinder car and didn't push because of the front end work we did to this car.
The 4th driver went out and made one lap and as he crossed the start/finish line heard a bang and picked up a bad vibration. Another blown up clutch housing.
Since the only parts that were the same were the clutch disc, the transaxle mounts and the drive shaft we figured we had an idea where to start looking.
After talking with Andy at Performatek and GregSef the driveshaft was our first place to look. We found that the end of the drive shaft where the split bearing is supposed to ride was completely chewed up so that the end of the drive shaft was not centered on the input flange to the clutch. Apparently this situation can live in regular street driving for quite a while but on the track the life span of the clutch housing is measured in hours. We have a plan to fix this and when we get it done I'll post some pics of our fix.
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post #34 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-15-2012, 02:15 PM
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Looks like a tough day at the office. I am wrapping up a few loose ends today and tomorrow. Test and tune on Tuesday. Road America on Saturday! I hope I live long enough!
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post #35 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 09:44 PM
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you guys going to the buttonwillow 24? i was just at the chump buttonwillow 14 and we blew our engine. grrr. not an alfa. long story. hope you get your car sorted!
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post #36 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-17-2012, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTVguy View Post
you guys going to the buttonwillow 24? i was just at the chump buttonwillow 14 and we blew our engine. grrr. not an alfa. long story. hope you get your car sorted!
We will be there in the Milano. Hoping for better lighting this time around..

bs
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post #37 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-18-2012, 08:45 PM
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Well, here I am, getting ready for 24/25 hours of Lemons, Sonoma Road Course will be our first run next March I expect. Need a car, I am thinking:

1) AR GTV-6
2) AR Milano
3) Maser Bi-turbo
4) 83/4 Mazda RX-7
5) 74 Porsche 914 2.0
6) AR Alfetta GT

I have 4-5 team members, enough?

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post #38 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-18-2012, 10:04 PM
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Well, our Mustang tried to burn up at Infenion and we have not found the enthusiasm to rebuild it, yet.
So, good luck to all in the 24 hrs.
#42 The Old and the Wreckless

Paul Blankenship AROSC
76 Alfetta GT -Track and daily driver; 88 Milano - a continuing project
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post #39 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2012, 05:48 AM
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Exhaust valve ID

Well- I found out yesterday that we knackered our cylinder head at Road America. Fortunately we have access to several good cores so we will be back in action soon. The need to build a head has brought up the question of exhaust valves, particullarly how to identify the factory sodium filled valves. I have heard that some of the replacements are not, and I want to make sure we have the best possible arrangement.
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post #40 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2012, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman911 View Post
Well- I found out yesterday that we knackered our cylinder head at Road America. Fortunately we have access to several good cores so we will be back in action soon. The need to build a head has brought up the question of exhaust valves, particullarly how to identify the factory sodium filled valves. I have heard that some of the replacements are not, and I want to make sure we have the best possible arrangement.
The OEM valves on my 2.5 liter were engraved or something with the Alfa romeo part numbers up by the tip of the stem. They were 119****** etc

Aftermarket Stainless exhaust valves seem be be every bit as good or better in my opinion.

Some of the valves in my motor when I tore it down were OEM and others appeared to be TRW. There was no difference in their condition after whatever their life was in my LeMons race engine.

Just make sure you switch to a fixed belt tensioner or make one or use the old hydraulic tensioner, especially if you decide to run some valve springs that are a bit heavier. The standard mechanical tensioner is GUARENTEED to fail if you race on it with a bigger load on the cam belt. Ask me how I know....

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)

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post #41 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2012, 08:28 AM
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Comments

Here`s some comments based on a quick read through of the thread:

Brakes:
Front brakes from GTV6/Milano when set up correctly with proper race pads, are more than adequate for endurance racing.
This means true forced air cooling from either front vents in the airflow or use of marine type bilge blowers to cool. As well correct brake fluid with 600 degree dry boiling rating typically ends soft petal. The most effective method of keeping pad heat out of the fluid (and pistons conducting it there) is to use .040 thick stainless sheet metal spacers cut to pad shape between the pads and pistons. Actually a pair of these on each piston is very effective as stainless does not conduct heat well surface to surface.

Rear brakes:
Loose the Alfetta/Milano design calipers as too much metal in the units and overheat with little use. Simply swap to Spider calipers with stainless insulators as above and proper brake fluid.
Venting effectively is needed. Winglets welded to the deDion tube forward of the brakes to scoop up air into the dead space around the brakes and TA will help more than anything else. (also cools TA) Similar winglets can be used on the 105/115 cars to improve rear brake cooling
Venting through the side window gets very little if any air. (Too much turbulance for "NACA" type ducts to get any result. If that is your choice then you will have to force air with blowers.

Suspension:
Front, the best handling modification are dropped Spindles that not only lower the car but improve the suspension geometry by increasing camber gain on bump and reducing it on droop, and raising the roll center all of which reduces understeer.
High negative camber settings (2.5-3+) will only kill tires. Not a minor issue in endurance racing.

Rear:
The dedion is an "Active" type suspension. Reducing that a bit helps.
Move the front mount of the triangle up as much as possioble by removing the shims between the cross member and chassis body. (put the shims between the bolt head and crossmember to take up length (or use washers about the same thickness) as the threaded section of the bolts will be too short and strip the internal threaded plates.
Also move up the front deDion bushing to the top of the cross member to further raise the pivot point. This will make the car far more stable under braking and stable on turn-in.

Easy way to get some negative camber on the crossmember, weld a solid bead along the top of the deDion tube. this will pull about -.75 degree on both sides. It will also stiffen the flimsy tube a bit.

Hubs etc:
The Alfetta type upright has a smaller outer bearing than the V6 (5 stud) type upright. Otherthan the spindle, they are the same dimensionally.
Vented brakes are larger in diameter so when converting the cast iron brakes (either ATE or Iron Brembos) from the Alfetta, to Aluminum Brembos the brembos will need to have the mounting holes slotted so they can be slid closer to the spindle centerline so that the pads don`t overlap the brake disk.

Driveline:
If you are breaking clutch covers it is a result of the rear section of the driveshaft not being centered and stable as Greg has pointed out.. That is why my design for one piece driveshafts used the front spline section from the Milano/GTV6 (for adjustment) and only used the late Alfetta rear guibo as it is the most positive centered one made. If the centering nose section of your clutch input shaft os worn or buggered, replace it or it can be hardwelded and machined (and actually be made longer to center more effectively.)

I have many Brembo caliper spacers. ( FYI:They can be used on ATEs as well) Email or PM me.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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Last edited by Alfar7; 06-23-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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post #42 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 09:01 AM
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Cam belt Tensioners

Warning Long Post.

This year I have had a lot of problems with my Milano in lemons racing. The
first race of the season the head gasket gave up (original). No damage but that
entailed some work. I took the opportunity to cut the head(.024") and lapped the
valves and uprated the valve springs (30% stiffer). It all went back together
well and based on my seat of the pants dyno I was up some noticeable power. The
cam in this car is a used one I found on eBay an RJR 570/744 it works very well in my
motor. Leak down on the motor has always been really good (2% to 6%)

As some of you may know I have the rev limit set at 7200 and a set of used eBay
IAP headers that we welded a balance pipe to. The pipes go into a gutted center
section muffler and then two pipes out the side. I replaced the plenum AFM hose
with a big smooth hose going to the AFM and a cold air feed to a KN style
filter. The motor is tuned pretty well, cam timing optimized. It's was on a
Chassis dyno 3 years ago and it had plenty of fuel for what it could breath. For what its worth the dyno said 145HP and I think about 140 ft/lbs of peak torque before I worked on the heads. But most
importantly we drive like we stole it. The harder you drive it the better it
runs and believe you me, I hammer this motor hard.

So back to the problem: It's all about the mechanical tensioner's. Six hours
into the race at NHMS the outer spring in the tensioner fatigue cracks and we
lose some tension it skips and its game over. OK, Now I do a proper valve job
with guides and new valves and I am getting good at this. I bought a NewWay kit
and port match and some other work as well. Remove some pistons and inspect the
bottom end everything looks great. So I put it all back together and while I am
talking about getting a hydraulic detensioner I cannot locate one in time for
the race at Summit point. So 5 hours into that race one of my drivers hears a
pop and bang and the power goes away and the car is smoking a bit. We bring him
in and after a bit of jerking around I see the 1,2,3 bank cam is out of time by
one tooth. Sure enough the new mechanical tensioner outer spring is broken. So
we pull it apart screw the tensioner together and reset the cams and send the
car out. The powers OK but the car is smoking blue smoke pretty heavy and I
decide rather than grenade the motor better to retire.

BTW I am tensioning with a fixed tensioner so that the belt along the long length on the tension side
can not quite be turned 90 degrees, you agree?

So it turned out, I had a few bent valves on the 1,2,3 bank and the bent intakes
valves had pulled my guides out on 2 cylinders so oil was leaking down the bore
the valve guides press into. Fast forward and I have repaired the damage.

It seems as though the little bit more of spring rate on my valve springs has
changed things radically for the mechanical tensioner. It is being rocked around
with some sort of resonant excitation which fatigues and cracks the outer spring
that goes to the bimetal element. So I need to tension the belt differently. I
see a few choices.

1. Wind the mechanical tensioner up to it installed position and use 5mm bolts
through the blind holes in it to turn it into a fixed tensioner
2. Use a rebuilt hydraulic detensioner which I have.
3. Use the hydraulic detensioner with the oil feed port block off so there is no
detensioning.
4. Design and build my own fixed adjustable mechanical tensioner using the
plastic wheel and bearing from the stack of used tensioners everyone has.
5. Take the hydraulic tensioner apart and tap a thread where the piston assembly
is now located for a pusher screw.
6. Attempt to make a ZAT style tensioner, probably the most work to do it
correctly.

Perhaps I missed something? Anyway I am spamming a few people with this message
to see if the collective wisdom can help me and also cross posting this. I have a few photos I cut & pasted of some examples of other peoples tensioners.




Links to pictures or instructions on other sites are also welcome.

We are racing at NHMS in Loudon NH on October 26th through 28th if any Alfisti in New England
want to stop by.

Thanks in advance.

Greg
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1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)

Last edited by GregSef; 10-18-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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post #43 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 09:54 AM
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My LeMons/Chump Milano is up for sale, the car has a 100% finishing record, has run LeMons, Chump, ECTA, and THSCC Rallycross. The car is available by itself or in a package with my Grassrrots challenge GTV6 with fresh Difatta heads, and a Milano Platinum street car currently on the road.

3 cars and spares $3500
Just the Chump Milano $1500

Spares include brakes, shocks, ecu, AFM, doughnuts, trans mounts, etc etc.

Wheels in the package are 1 set GTV6, 1 set Stil Auto, 5 Verrde, set of Wine glass/Platnium.

Located in Eastern NC

Thanks

Al Taylor
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post #44 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavman25 View Post
My LeMons/Chump Milano is up for sale, the car has a 100% finishing record, has run LeMons, Chump, ECTA, and THSCC Rallycross. The car is available by itself or in a package with my Grassrrots challenge GTV6 with fresh Difatta heads, and a Milano Platinum street car currently on the road.

3 cars and spares $3500
Just the Chump Milano $1500

Spares include brakes, shocks, ecu, AFM, doughnuts, trans mounts, etc etc.

Wheels in the package are 1 set GTV6, 1 set Stil Auto, 5 Verrde, set of Wine glass/Platnium.

Located in Eastern NC

Thanks

Al Taylor
[email protected]
Yes, yes thats great.

But the question I have is....

What kind of tensioner does it have?

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #45 of 348 (permalink) Old 10-18-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncng View Post
Well, here I am, getting ready for 24/25 hours of Lemons, Sonoma Road Course will be our first run next March I expect. Need a car, I am thinking:

1) AR GTV-6
2) AR Milano
3) Maser Bi-turbo
4) 83/4 Mazda RX-7
5) 74 Porsche 914 2.0
6) AR Alfetta GT

I have 4-5 team members, enough?

ncng
Just saw this.

4 drivers is fine for a normal race. If you want to be competitive, then you'll want to start running longer driving stints, 2+ hours. Once you get to that point, 3 drivers is all you need for the normal events, 4-5 is good for a 24 hour race.

If I had to choose an Alfa I'd go with a GTV6 (we're running a Milano). I think you can get the same performance as a Milano, relatively speaking, with a lower center of gravity.

bs
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