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post #136 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-21-2014, 08:07 AM
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Some issues

I am beginning to prep my car for the next LeMons race at NJMP. I have seen a few reoccurring problems popping up in the last few races. As I have said before, my car "Angelina" is pretty developed at this point and is being driven harder that ever before. Its a good car and can run with the big dogs of LeMons in any venue, proven by its position in P1 or P2 for long lengths of time in the last 3 races in fields of 130 - 140 cars.

1. I run the stock brakes up front with high pressure air ducted into the "hat" of the vented rotors. The body of my calipers is getting to at least 300 degrees F and the piston is definitely higher. I run Castrol Racing SRF brake fluid and have never experienced brake fade from boiling.
But, shortly into any race (1-2 hours) the heat burns up the dust shields on the caliper piston. Which would be no problem, except that those dust shields prevent the caliper piston from turning. So then the caliper piston will revolve slightly due to the pads slight movement in the caliper body. When they turn the cutout area that is designed to be at exactly 20 degrees to the caliper turns and now the pad will be worn rather severely on a taper because of this. So I need a crazy high temp dust shield or a way to prevent the caliper piston from revolving.

2. Front wheel bearings: The car can pull over 1g of cornering force for extended periods and does. A typical race weekend including practice is 20 hours of track time. The front rotors will get blue from the heat all the way around, stopping at the wheel studs. So there is a good heat load. After every race the front hubs come off everything is inspected and repacked with red line synthetic grease. I have tried more bearing preload and less bearing preload. After each race I generally will need to replace one of the inner bearings because it has some very fine beginnings of some marking on the cup portion.

But every 3rd race or so I will find one of the inner bearings cups loose in the hub. Since the bearing cup or race is way harder than the hub, What is happening is that the cup displaces the metal of the hub then can rotate. This is supposed to be a press fit. So game over for that hub.

These inner bearing cups are loctited in with Loctite 620 and are good when installed. I have been using Redline CV-2 synthetic grease and am going to try Mobil 1 next.

I realize that I am subjecting these bearings to loads beyond what their designers ever intended. But I can make the bearing live but the housing (hub) is the weak point.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)

Last edited by GregSef; 04-23-2014 at 11:05 AM.
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post #137 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 06:29 AM
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Issues

Quote:
1. I run the stock brakes up front with high pressure air ducted into the "hat" of the vented rotors. The body of my calipers is getting to at least 300 degrees F and the piston is definitely higher. I run Castrol Racing SRF brake fluid and have never experienced brake fade from boiling.
But, shortly into any race (1-2 hours) the heat burns up the dust shields on the caliper piston. Which would be no problem, except that those dust shields prevent the caliper piston from turning. So then the caliper piston will revolve slightly due to the pads slight movement in the caliper body. When they turn the cutout area that is designed to be at exactly 20 degrees to the caliper turns and now the pad will be worn rather severely on a taper because of this. So I need a crazy high temp dust shield or a way to prevent the caliper piston from revolving.
Two things, If you are running vent hoses that depend on just incoming air from the car`s speed you should wire in a couple of bilge blowers to really move air on to the brake center.

The solution to both stabilising the piston and reducing heat transfer from the pads to the dust shield is a couple of thin stainless sheet metal plates cut to the same shape as the brake pads including the retaining holes.
The outer one dhould have a machined relief so that the contact pad on the piston fits through that plate so that it is held in the correct position but the stainless plate must leave the pistons contact area proud of that plates surface.
A second thin stainless brake pad plate should not have a cutout but simply act as an insulator.

You are an E so you know het transfer is reduced between surfaces and stainless is a good choice for reducing heat transfer.
These should be on both sides of the caliper of course.
The reduction in heat transfer to the calipers is substantial.


Quote:
2. Front wheel bearings: The car can pull over 1g of cornering force for extended periods and does. A typical race weekend including practice is 20 hours of track time. The front rotors will get blue from the heat all the way around, stopping at the wheel studs. So there is a good heat load. After every race the front hubs come off everything is inspected and repacked with red line synthetic grease. I have tried more bearing preload and less bearing preload. After each race I generally will need to replace one of the inner bearings because it has some very fine beginnings of some marking on the cup portion.

But every 3rd race or so I will find one of the inner bearings cups loose in the hub. Since the bearing cup or race is way harder than the hub, What is happening is that the cup displaces the metal of the hub then can rotate. This is supposed to be a press fit. So game over for that hub.

These inner bearing cups are loctited in with Loctite 620 and are good when installed.

I realize that I am subjecting these bearings to loads beyond what their designers ever intended. But I can make the bearing live but the housing (hub) is the weak point.

Greg
The hub material is pretty thin at both front and rear bearing area.
Solution is to reduce expansion due to load on the hub.

I assume you have removed the clip on anti-lock senders from the hub.
But note the area that they took obstructed air flow to the rotor.
I suggest you lightly machine (using a lathe) the outer surface where the inner bearing race and seal fits, to a consistant diameter (it is a casting).

Then take either a section of thick wall STEEL (not cast iron) tubing or machine a section of round steel plate to a inside diameter a couple of thousandths ID diameter smaller than the finished hub diameter. The OD should be about 1 inch larger than the ID (1/2 inch wall) which will act as both heat sink and prevent growth.
Heat the ring and chill the hub and press it on.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #138 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 12:03 PM
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And provided there is adequate space, doubled SS shims on the backs of the rear brake pads might be a way to reduce some of the transaxle's heat problem too.
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post #139 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-22-2014, 04:17 PM
Richard Jemison
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SS shims

There is space on stock Spider calipers and Alfetta type. I ran them in spider calipers spaced out for vented rotors on the GT2 GTV6. They are in both my Alfa race cars.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #140 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 08:21 AM
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Hi RJ,

Good Idea WRT SS shims. I will do this for the race after this one. We are in NJ May 9-11th. What do you think for sheet thickness?

Likewise with hub. I think I want to try to design something more robust with a bigger bearing though.

Heat is an issue for sure.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #141 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
Hi RJ,

Good Idea WRT SS shims. I will do this for the race after this one. We are in NJ May 9-11th. What do you think for sheet thickness?

Likewise with hub. I think I want to try to design something more robust with a bigger bearing though.

Heat is an issue for sure.

Greg
Hopefully Wes Conklin will chime in here. They machined some hubs and spindles to make a Ford Crown Victoria (I think) front hub work on the Milano. The bearings in that thing are massive.

We rerouted our exhaust to exit from the side, and installed vented rear rotors (along with spaced Spider calipers). We went from warping stock rear rotors every other race to not having to touch them in the past 2 years.

For our fronts, we ran some ducts from out front, and we are repacking the bearings every other race, and checking wheel bearing play at the end of ever race day. So far, no problems. But we don't drive as hard as you do.

bs
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post #142 of 348 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 10:32 AM
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SS shims

Quote:
Good Idea WRT SS shims. I will do this for the race after this one. We are in NJ May 9-11th. What do you think for sheet thickness?
The one holding the piston in position has to be as thick as possible but leave the contact area proud of it to place pressure on the right area of the pads. Others can be thinner and used in multiples as pads wear down to keep the pad deep in the piston.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #143 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 08:21 AM
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We just got back from another disappointing (but fun) weekend of racing. We ran the Chumpcar race at Gingerman and things started off well. Day one we ran as high as P13 and were moving up until early in stint 4 when oil temp soared and oil pressure plummeted. After much experimentation and head scratching we determined an oil cooler line had herniated internally, blocking flow to the cooler. We replaced the lines and got back on the track for a couple more stints on Saturday.

Sunday came around and we were running strong even with an artificially low redline of 5k. We managed to work ourselves up to P10 when the car started overheating. After cool down we found the radiator was low and topped it off, sent the driver back out with explicit instructions to return if the temp exceeded 200. Which it did about an hour later. We continued this process until the end of the day. We narrowed down the water loss to the fill neck/cap area but we are unsure if it is cause or effect. We are going to do an engine teardown next week, we want to look at bearings and headgasket.

We suspect that we have too little suspension travel at the front, in jounce. At a couple of places on the track where we suspect the largest and longest lateral loads occurred, we discovered some hop.

We run a stock Spica Alfetta gas tank with the output rerouted to the spare tire area, where we have a 1 qt spin on canister fuel filter and our Bosch electric fuel pump. after about 90 minutes of racing we will aerated the fuel pump in left handers. After refueling we find that we have only used 6-8 gallons of fuel (of 14).

So this begs some questions:
- Those of you running oil coolers, what do you use for hose?
- Do most racers agree on a minimum oil pressure of 10lbs per 1k RPM hot?
- What kind of pressure do you guys run in your cooling system? We use a 16 lb
cap.
- Has anyone done any relocation of the jounce stop, or is our only option to
increase ride height?
- Has anyone done any work to baffle a stock fuel tank? Would putting the fuel pump in a lower height relative to the tank help? (stock location is much lower that current location, which would increase head pressure and have a longer hose from the tank.)

Despite of the mechanical issues we did manage an award this weekend. Our team was awarded the prestigious "Spin Cycle Award" for the most offs of the weekend. I have never been so proud and humiliated at the same time.
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post #144 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-21-2014, 07:59 AM Thread Starter
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So this begs some questions:
- Those of you running oil coolers, what do you use for hose?
We run AN hose and fittings on our cars. Currently use SS hose but looking at the push on style for the next car.
- Do most racers agree on a minimum oil pressure of 10lbs per 1k RPM hot?
Yes
- What kind of pressure do you guys run in your cooling system? We use a 16 lb
cap.
So do we we but we also modify the radiator to be a triple pass system.
- Has anyone done any relocation of the jounce stop, or is our only option to
increase ride height?
You want to keep the lower control arm fairly level. If the arm runs uphill from the frame to the lower ball joint then the roll center is under ground and the car doesn't handle. We use a dropped spindle to help get our car lower.
- Has anyone done any work to baffle a stock fuel tank? Would putting the fuel pump in a lower height relative to the tank help? (stock location is much lower that current location, which would increase head pressure and have a longer hose from the tank.)
The stock Alfetta tank has three baffles that run front to back and one that runs side to side. Although the fitting for the fuel pick up is on the left side of the tank it is picking up the fuel in the middle of the tank. There is a tube that runs to the center of the tank and a slight depression that it picks up from. I'll post some pictures if I can find them. Are you still running the Spica system? Our 4 cylinder car burned 6 gallons/hour and would run a full 2 hours on a tank with the Webers and not miss a beat until it just ran out of fuel.

Despite of the mechanical issues we did manage an award this weekend. Our team was awarded the prestigious "Spin Cycle Award" for the most offs of the weekend. I have never been so proud and humiliated at the same time.
Glad you had a good time. When these cars are good they are great, getting them there can make you tear your hair out. But why race an easy car? Anybody can do that.

Wes
Winner 24 Hours of Lemons, Finally
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post #145 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-22-2014, 05:32 AM
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Wes- we do still run the Spica. I am a bit puzzled by our fuel delivery issue. I think step one will be a proctoscope inspection of the guts of the tank.
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post #146 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman911 View Post
We just got back from another disappointing (but fun) weekend of racing. We ran the Chumpcar race at Gingerman and things started off well. Day one we ran as high as P13 and were moving up until early in stint 4 when oil temp soared and oil pressure plummeted. After much experimentation and head scratching we determined an oil cooler line had herniated internally, blocking flow to the cooler. We replaced the lines and got back on the track for a couple more stints on Saturday.

Sunday came around and we were running strong even with an artificially low redline of 5k. We managed to work ourselves up to P10 when the car started overheating. After cool down we found the radiator was low and topped it off, sent the driver back out with explicit instructions to return if the temp exceeded 200. Which it did about an hour later. We continued this process until the end of the day. We narrowed down the water loss to the fill neck/cap area but we are unsure if it is cause or effect. We are going to do an engine teardown next week, we want to look at bearings and headgasket.

We suspect that we have too little suspension travel at the front, in jounce. At a couple of places on the track where we suspect the largest and longest lateral loads occurred, we discovered some hop.

We run a stock Spica Alfetta gas tank with the output rerouted to the spare tire area, where we have a 1 qt spin on canister fuel filter and our Bosch electric fuel pump. after about 90 minutes of racing we will aerated the fuel pump in left handers. After refueling we find that we have only used 6-8 gallons of fuel (of 14).

So this begs some questions:
- Those of you running oil coolers, what do you use for hose?
- Do most racers agree on a minimum oil pressure of 10lbs per 1k RPM hot?
- What kind of pressure do you guys run in your cooling system? We use a 16 lb
cap.
- Has anyone done any relocation of the jounce stop, or is our only option to
increase ride height?
- Has anyone done any work to baffle a stock fuel tank? Would putting the fuel pump in a lower height relative to the tank help? (stock location is much lower that current location, which would increase head pressure and have a longer hose from the tank.)

Despite of the mechanical issues we did manage an award this weekend. Our team was awarded the prestigious "Spin Cycle Award" for the most offs of the weekend. I have never been so proud and humiliated at the same time.
Take a look at Earls Pro Lite 350 hose, use it with the AN hose ends. Goodrich and Aeroquip make similar products.

I use a standard cap and I have a 3.0 liter Milano stock radiator. I should switch to a Summit racing Chinese one.

The fuel tank on a Milano is brilliant. 17 gallons and it all comes out. The motor will hiccup on left handers when there is about .75 gallons left. Of course you need to service the sock inside the tank. I don't know much about the Alfetta tank. You need to get a look in there.

I would remove or seriously cut down the bump stop. And then what are you running for front springs? At minimum you have to have 27mm torsion bars. And a 27mm front ARB.

If there are issues with your fuel tank (did it always behave this way?) you can perhaps fabricate or buy a surge tank and pump to it and pump out of it. Look it up.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #147 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
Take a look at Earls Pro Lite 350 hose, use it with the AN hose ends. Goodrich and Aeroquip make similar products.
We run Aeroquip to an off the shelf oil cooler via a pancake adapter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
I use a standard cap and I have a 3.0 liter Milano stock radiator. I should switch to a Summit racing Chinese one.
We are running the Summit radiator that's been discussed on the BB in the past. Cost was less than $200, cooling capacity was for a 5.0 liter motor. Between the oil cooler and the radiator, engine temps were < 200 deg in 100 deg Buttonwillow temps this past weekend. We were probably around 200 deg in 115 deg Buttonwillow temps last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregSef View Post
The fuel tank on a Milano is brilliant. 17 gallons and it all comes out. The motor will hiccup on left handers when there is about .75 gallons left. Of course you need to service the sock inside the tank. I don't know much about the Alfetta tank. You need to get a look in there.
Yup, we put in > 16 gallons 3 times this past weekend, and the car hadn't stuttered yet. We removed the internal tank filter years ago, and haven't had any issues.

bs
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post #148 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 04:46 PM
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Thanks guys! I let you know what I find out in a week or so. No Race car work until the front porch is rebuilt. My wife is sooooooo mean!
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post #149 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 09:20 AM
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Lemons/Chump Problems/Wives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman911 View Post
Thanks guys! I let you know what I find out in a week or so. No Race car work until the front porch is rebuilt. My wife is sooooooo mean!
Hey, what's the matter with wives' today? You mean they don't want you using their dishwasher to clean auto parts, using their pots and pans to heat up thermostats to see if they open, using your jelly roll pans for miscellaneous screws and nuts as you disassemble a greasy engine, and last but not least tripping through the house, stepping over engines and miscellaneous parts...? Oh, I've got it -- the porch has to be fixed so that you can accomplish all of the above.

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #150 of 348 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Braden View Post
Hey, what's the matter with wives' today? You mean they don't want you using their dishwasher to clean auto parts, using their pots and pans to heat up thermostats to see if they open, using your jelly roll pans for miscellaneous screws and nuts as you disassemble a greasy engine, and last but not least tripping through the house, stepping over engines and miscellaneous parts...? Oh, I've got it -- the porch has to be fixed so that you can accomplish all of the above.
Maybe the work bench is on the porch?

bs
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