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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark_toro View Post
Nice job on the adapter. Bummer that the pump runs all the time. Have you confirmed that there is brake fluid at the pump inlet? Checked the pressure switch? I never had to bleed the system after an accumulator swap.

What are the threads on the Mitsu accumulator? Knowing that information will allow me to copy your adapter w/o buying a new accumulator, making for a much faster swap in the future.

Thanks
Mark
Mark,
The threads on the Mitsubishi accumulator are 16mm x 1, on the Milano accumulator are 14 x 1.5. The tap and die can both be fairly expensive but I found both on eBay and Amazon for about $10 apiece in HSS. I wouldn't want to use them in a professional shop but they worked fine for one use.

I had to make a change after taking the pictures as I forgot to machine a bevel at the top of the female threads for the o-ring.
You have to machine a groove for the o-ring on the male threads also.

I used 1-1/4" 303 stainless rod - easier to cut than 304 or other stainless - from Metal Supermarkets. I'm not sure it needs to be that big around but I don't have the skills to determine the requirements for 185 BAR so opted for overkill.

Another thing I didn't do because I can't see a purpose is to drill a hole in the adapter threads to match the one in the original accumulator. There is not a matching channel or opening inside of the pump threads, so I assume that it had some purpose in another application.

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019, 10:24 AM
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If you did not drill the hole in the adapter make **** sure that you unscrew the accumulator first. The little hole is a pressure relief safety. Think like the lid on a 2 liter bottle of pop. Allows the Fshhhh... and keeps the lid from shooting off. Imagine that with 100s of Bar! Accumulator rocket!

Of course 25 pumps until the pedal goes hard discharges the pressure, but wouldn't want to make the mistake of unscrewing the adapter under pressure w/o the hole.

Thanks for the thread specifications!

Mark

84 Spider - Long gone, but started the addiction; 85 GTV6 - Current project, Supercharged, Mega Squirt; 88 Verde - "Milo" It has a name, must be a keeper
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:32 PM
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This why I am in process of swapping out my ABS for conventional brakes. My Verde had been apart for some time and I don't want to deal with it all. The accumulator was weak when I took it apart..

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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info on the hole in the accumulator threads. The Mitsubishi accumulator doesn't have that hole either so I will probably have to add to it and the adapter. Or maybe just make a permanent sticker to attach to the accumulator and/or adapter.

I bled the brakes and I'm now getting fairly normal behavior from the brakes, although they still seem kind of soft. I may drive it a bit and then bleed the brakes again. At least the car is driveable now. I'm still in search of a replacement pump just in case. Or even better a non-ABS conversion.

If I make any further progress I'll post it here.

Still have a nonfunctioning ARC. Will probably start a new thread for that problem.

Thanks to all for all of you help!

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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This why I am in process of swapping out my ABS for conventional brakes. My Verde had been apart for some time and I don't want to deal with it all. The accumulator was weak when I took it apart..

Dom


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Dom,
Is there a thread anywhere on the BB with details for making the swap? What pieces are needed and where did you get them?

Thanks.

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 05:20 PM
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I machined a new adapter to use with the Mitsubishi accumulator. Here are some pictures. It doesn't seem to have solved the problem, in fact now when I turn the key the pump runs all the time. I'm assuming that means the pump is weak so I'm looking to replace it. Fingers crossed.
What are the two thread sizes on the adapter? Too bad the accumulator didn't fix it

Graham
88 Milano Verde, 13 500 Abarth, 04 Used Maserati Coupe GT
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 05:44 PM
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I am not sure of where the thread is honestly. I know that there is one and I will need to find it once I dig into the ARC end of things to disable the red alert.

Off the top of my head: You need a new pedal box to mount the conventional master cylinder, brake booster, master cylinder and reservoir, the proportioning valve and new lines to the front wheels. Someone will let us know if I missed something.

I know APE has a conversion kit but I found all the parts from members/classifieds here. I took my time and accumulated (pun intended) the different pieces slowly.

Another tip I got from Zamani was to use a 164 master cylinder since it is a little larger for more braking power. The 164 MC i got has a remote reservoir so I have to work through that. Also I plan on getting an adjustable brake proportioning from Summit since I don't have the inline stock one.

DOM!

Quote:
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Dom,
Is there a thread anywhere on the BB with details for making the swap? What pieces are needed and where did you get them?

Thanks.

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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What are the two thread sizes on the adapter? Too bad the accumulator didn't fix it
All the information I have,including material used, is in post 31 above. There are pictures in post 27.
The accumulator was a big improvement, to the point that I can drive the car. Now that the system is functioning basically as it is supposed to I'm going to focus on the pump. Then I think I just need to go through everything brake related and fine tune, including another brake bleed in a week or so.

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 07:34 PM
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All the information I have,including material used, is in post 31 above. There are pictures in post 27.
The accumulator was a big improvement, to the point that I can drive the car. Now that the system is functioning basically as it is supposed to I'm going to focus on the pump. Then I think I just need to go through everything brake related and fine tune, including another brake bleed in a week or so.
From what I remember the brakes don't feel great when they work properly.

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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 05:48 AM
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I actually prefer the feel of the ABS brake system in the Milano over the softer pedal in the GTV6. Both systems are up to snuff. Residual pressure valves have been recommended to firm up the GTV6, but haven't taken that step.

Glad your brakes are functional - so far (3 years / 70Kmiles) mine have been reasonably reliable once I got them working.

84 Spider - Long gone, but started the addiction; 85 GTV6 - Current project, Supercharged, Mega Squirt; 88 Verde - "Milo" It has a name, must be a keeper
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post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 05:51 AM
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. . .This why I am in process of swapping out my ABS for conventional brakes. My Verde had been apart for some time and I don't want to deal with it all. . . .
Boy, what a Debbie Downer . . . sucking what is left of any remnants of positive energy out of autoxr13's efforts. :-)

If one tried though, one could find similar sentiments expressed over the years here on the BB literally 100s of times.
An ABSectomy is as inevitable as death, taxes, and the wife slappin' ya across the head saying, "Will you take out the garbage already?". It simply must be.
Yet some of us continue fight the (good?) fight, like the salmon swimming upstream, fighting the odds . . . we push on. Is it courage, stubbornness, delusion, stupidity, or some combination thereof? Who's to say . . . but we push on. We are the type dealing(and enjoying?) 30, 40, 50 yo cars? Where is the sanity in that?

I would contend that we all will, one day give in and perform the surgery. But for today . . we press on.
(Tony Robbins has nothing to worry about here)


Quote:
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. . Is there a thread anywhere on the BB with details for making the swap? . . .
Over the years, there have been many. Perhaps this thread is best? or original?

'73 GTV - '78 Alfetta Sprint Veloce - '88 Milano Verde
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post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 06:37 AM Thread Starter
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What are the two thread sizes on the adapter? Too bad the accumulator didn't fix it
Also, please read all of the comments, others have helpful comments, especially regarding the dangers of the pressure in the ABS system.

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that link. Really thorough and with great detail and pictures, including the unexpected problems and solutions.. One of the best I've seen.
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post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 03:47 AM
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. . . . I had to make a change after taking the pictures as I forgot to machine a bevel at the top of the female threads for the o-ring.
You have to machine a groove for the o-ring on the male threads also. . . .
Do you have any information on the 'o-ring groove' details that you can share, drawing, sketch, pictures, or otherwise? When you say 'o-ring', what did you actually use? You likely reused the smaller seal, and by your comments, polymer/rubber o-rings are implied, but it is hard to believe they will hold up to these pressure? Perhaps if they are proper(well) constrained. I would of thought the application would use copper washers, but hey, that's why I'm asking. :-)

I'm likely to take your route.

Thanks.

'73 GTV - '78 Alfetta Sprint Veloce - '88 Milano Verde
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post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Do you have any information on the 'o-ring groove' details that you can share, drawing, sketch, pictures, or otherwise? When you say 'o-ring', what did you actually use? You likely reused the smaller seal, and by your comments, polymer/rubber o-rings are implied, but it is hard to believe they will hold up to these pressure? Perhaps if they are proper(well) constrained. I would of thought the application would use copper washers, but hey, that's why I'm asking. :-)

I'm likely to take your route.

Thanks.
I don't have any drawings for the 0-ring groove. I had missed it I my first iteration and just eyeballed it to be as close to the groove in the Alfa accumulator, about even with the bottom of the threads and rounded. Actually the only things that weren't seat of the pants were the threads and length of the threaded portions which were determined by the old and new accumulators.
I used the same size rubber? O-ring for the fitting into the pump. For the connection between the adapter and the accumulator I used an appropriate sized rubber o-ring. If you look at the top of the pump where the original accumulator goes you will see a sort of 45 degree bevel where the o-ring sits. My adapter has a groove that matches the one in the original accumulator. When the adapter is fully inserted it is almost flush with the top of the pump and locks the o-ring pretty tight. I cut a similar angle bevel in the top of the adapter for the Mitsubishi accumulator. Everything seals fine.
One important note. I did not drill the hole in either the adapter or the Mitsubishi accumulator for the pressure release as explained by Mark_Toro in post 32 above but did print and attach a detailed warning of the process to follow before removing the accumulator. If I was starting over I would probably drill the holes and attach the warning labels.
Good luck.

67 Duetto - My first Alfa, 73 GTV, 86 GTV6 3 liter
85 Spider, 92 Spider, 88 Milano Verde, another 88 Milano Verde for parts or resurrection
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