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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 02:15 AM
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People keep saying that the ES30/SZ was built on a modified 75 Imsa chassis, but what were the differences?
How did the Imsa chassis differ from the regular 75 chassis? The cars were obviously going to be exstensively reinforced for touring car racing, so why would Alfa have made an upgraded version of the 75 chassis at all?
Or was it just so they could use coil springs for the front suspension and coil springs over the rear dampers on the rear suspension for homologation reasons?

The Zagato clearly has very different A pillars to the 75. The Pillars look to be further back in the Zagato, but that couldn't work in a 75. The structure underneath the front guards looks to be way more substancial than in a 75 chaasis and it looks like that is doable because the A pillar is further rearwards.

The family resembalance is definitely there, but it looks to me like there's no genuine direct comparison between the 75 and the Zagato chassis.
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Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 07:02 AM
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Shorten a 75 Evo chassis by 10"
any data i have seen (admittedly have not seen everything) lists same wheel base for 75 & SZ30. the SZ30 has wider track front and rear - by 3-4", but wheel base is same. SZ30 may be a little shorter at the ends (more like the rear end) but as far as basic handling performance etc, wheelbase is same. alfa spent a lot of time and money to upgrade the performance of the car - and they did a masterful job. some changes subtle, some bold, but all integrated beautifully. another 50 hp and it would have been in super car territory (at the time).
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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 07:14 AM Thread Starter
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I was literally referring to the chassis/undercarriage/body, not the wheelbase length (same). Where they chopped it, I don't know, but judging on the size of the SZ "trunk" Id say most of it was in the rear.

PS: I have been working on a document to compare the 75 and SZ build and specs side-by-side BUT not getting very far as info is sparse, frequently in foreign languages, vague, and sometimes contradictory. The reason is to clarify the ignorant notion in some corners that it's just a "75 in plastic clothing". Should the 75 Evo be added for reference? I have enlisted expert help. B

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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 09:22 AM
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I never investigated about this.... I should read books and other I've in my holiday home to answer correctly.

That I know is:
1. the wheelbase of my car is some centimeters less than the production SZ
(you can see that wheel arches have been hammered by hand to make room for steering);
2. it was normal in those years to built race chassis with different specs respect the road car. For example, I know Lancia Delta, (from 4WD still to Evo Integrale). The road car was a thing, the rally group "A" another, and the rally group "A" of the official team, another too... The chassis of the official team car is different from the "commercial" chassis for the other rally group "A" cars....
3. of course, the chassis of the race 75 was different from road car too. And they never stop to change it and update it every time. Like is normal for a race car.... That I remember is that in 1986 the 75 Turbo had the homologation for FIA group "A", and started to run in World Tourism Championship in 1987. In the beginnings it was the "Turbo", in Italy called "Turbo America". Than arrived the "Evoluzione", (like did Ford with the Sierra Cosworth Evo, the Mercedes with the 190 E16 Evo 2.5 litres instead 2.3 and BMW with the M3 Evo 2.5), with more powerful and new updates in chassis too. And than the IMSA, with other updates. The engine powerful past from 280 cv. still to 440 cv.
Here enclosed I put a pictures taked from Autosprint, the most famous race car magazine in Italy.



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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 09:27 PM
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Personally I don't think it's helpful to use the pure race 75s as a reference.
And from what I've seen posted on GTV6.com, the increase in track width is purely from changes in wheel width and offset. The suspension arms are basically the same, with the exception of the top arms having larger openings to allow the coil spring to fit. And the Dedion having gussets between the bearing hubs and lower damper mounts so the springs can be mounted over the dampers and maybe some minor camber and toe built into the rear wheel alignment.

It seems to me that some incrimental changes to the chassis and suspension, reduced weight plus some very sticky Pirelli tyres are the differences.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.

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post #51 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 04:51 AM
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Wheelbase is always 2.510 mm.
The differences of chassis are in rigidity. About suspension, you just know the differences in springs and shock absorbers, and about the use of uniballs. The differences in the De Dion is in diameter of the arms between 75 and SZ. They did some experiments about that. In my car the rear suspension has a De Dion with bigger arms, directly taked from race. In normal SZ the arms are smaller than mine, but bigger than 75.

I put some pdf files and pictures.
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File Type: pdf cartella stampa presentazione salone ginevra marzo 1989.pdf (4.20 MB, 61 views)
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post #52 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 04:54 AM
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post #53 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 05:01 AM
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for other information about SZ, please see:

SZ/RZ story (for history)

and

Alfa Romeo SZ ( ES-30 ) (specifications)
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post #54 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 05:02 AM
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post #55 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 06:23 AM
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And from what I've seen posted on GTV6.com, the increase in track width is purely from changes in wheel width and offset.
dunno, SZ30 track is 3.84" bigger in front, 2.68" bigger in back. wheel width alone does not alter track much, greater effect would be from offset i think. that is a lot of change due to wheels and offsets. front wheels are only an inch wider - but with an offset of 7mm (vs 30 in last iteration of Verde wheels) - wheels alone would increase track by only ~ 2"??
rears wheels are 8" wide - but with offset of 20 - so 3/4" increase in track due to wheels?
my math skills not that good, but neither seems to give enough to account for the published track increase.
front lower control arms and steering knuckle/spindle are different part numbers - which does not mean different dimensions, but would be very interesting to measure them.
the rear axle (dedion tube) looks to be substantially reinforced in corners by the wheels - in particular the wheel bearing area (in milanos, that whole region is subject to a lot of flex under load). that could easily add track back there.
would love to get some measurements on both control arms and rear dedion.
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post #56 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 08:50 AM
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I think its more correct to say that the SZ is an uprated 75 chassis and suspension, Alfa Romeo designed body built by Zagato, than to say anything near a detuned 75 racer like the IMSA. The differences to the racers are so big that actually nobody would like drive a 75 racer on the road for everyday, I am quite sure!

Some very nice features on the SZ suspension that can be done on the other transaxles also without being so heavy. So like it as it is and dont think about race cars, just a nice road car, best of the 162 series!

Here how a racecar would be: Note the 3,2 24V engine which Alfa missed at the time to include in the package! The 24V engine!





G.

Last edited by Gabor K.; 11-12-2016 at 09:09 AM.
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post #57 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2016, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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SZ - 75 or Evo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
Personally I don't think it's helpful to use the pure race 75s as a reference.
I have read and heard qualitatively that the SZ was MECHANICALLY a "detuned and softened" 75 Evo so it seems logical at one extreme to compare the build to that evolutionary benchmark, and the 75 Quad at the other "base" benchmark extreme, as again, experts say it is VASTLY different from a stock 75 ("No comparison" is spoken). This all notwithstanding the aesthetics of body and interior. My interest is to make some quantitative factual sense of these statements. Clearly misunderstood cars by many. Ed, Humberto and guys like Gabor I am informed have many of the answers. I know my way around 105's reasonably well but personally have no knowledge of transaxle cars. Just trying to better understand the "evo"lution . . . ;-)

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-13-2016 at 03:54 PM.
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post #58 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-13-2016, 12:08 PM
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[QUOTE=Anfanuts;7302497]I have read and heard qualitatively that the SZ was MECHANICALLY a "detuned and softened" 75 Evo so it seems logical at one extreme to compare the build to that evolutionary benchmark, and the 75 Quad at the other "base" benchmark extreme, as again, experts say it is VASTLY different from a stock 75 ("No comparison" is spoken). This all notwithstanding the aesthetics of body and interior. My interest is to make some quantitative factual sense of these statements. Clearly misunderstood cars by many. Ed, Humberto and guys like Gabor I am informed have many of the answers. I know my way around 105's reasonably well but personally have no knowledge of transaxle cars. Just trying to better understand the "evo"lution . . . ;-)[/QUOT

Please dont understand me as a critic, I like Alfa history and also like the history correct and not coloured of hearsay and sellers possibly misunderanding of background history.

I was at the time of release of this car very interested as it was the top of the 162 range with many improvements of the basic transaxle.
Also I have the SZ book and Pianta´s story about how they developed the car making different versions to see what would work on the road. That in my mind does not say that the SZ i a detuned 75 IMSA race car. You need to read between the lines and evaluate what actually came across from the IMSA racer to the road car. So its not the engine of course, not the the de Dion axle, not the rear brakes, not the body of course, not the front brakes, not the gearbox. The only thing I can see nearly related to the IMSA is the front coilover, but I am sure no comparison in spring strength.
However if you compare with the 75 you see more likenesses - some strenghtened parts(de Dion tube) even the mid support of the Watt links are offset and not center as on the racer. then ventillated inboard rear brakes( instead of outboard) and no adjustable camber like on the racer. All in all what I see is improved 75 parts, but not really from the racer. So if somebody said detuned racer, thats not what the SZ book said!

Any way I think Alfa Romeo was not so interested to make a racer for the road, but having sporty features from the racecar that would work on the road.

Here a rare occasion when a fan got under the skirt of an IMSA racer.
With possiblity to compare the anatomy of the two cars.

ALFAGTV6.COM ? View topic - IMSA 75 detailed pics (original factory car) at Swartkops SA

G.
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post #59 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-11-2017, 10:43 AM
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truly this belongs in a museum.
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post #60 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-11-2017, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Funny but there is NOT one in the Alfa museum. We were there in May. The bastard stepchild apparently.

Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (
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) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (
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- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56
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- for the heck of it now!!!
- Dijonaise- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (
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) - for the 2017 Euro trip -
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- "PF Ziggy" - 1991 ES-30 Sprint Zagato #550 - for pure hedonism now -
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Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black -
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- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (
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- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (
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Links
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