Welcome Ziggy - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 41Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,982
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Duk, et al, one of the problem here to me is that there is not really good comprehensive technical description of the car's mechanicals or performance specs and much of what exists is in the foreign language press. This is compounded by slightly different terms used overseas ("all uniball body attachment"?). The US/English language press has snippets here and there which are often anecdotal with their sources buried in history and sources not cited. Shorten a 75 Evo chassis by 10", detune the engine a bit, soften the ride a bit, eliminate the trunk, add a different skin and a street interior, radio, etc. and that's about it. It is a bit like Alfa's "F-40". A bit harsh and spartan. Lots was stripped out. Creature comforts are a marginal "Alfa" A/C , a decent sound system, power mirrors and power door locks. I hope this discussion is aimed and seen at understanding SZ's better as not just as "faux-Zagato Milanos" (as often mistakenly said here) and NOT a bashing of the car it was derived from. Thanks to folks who know these cars better and clarify what it is. I have started a document to compare side-by-side specs with a 75 Quad to this end but it is woefully inadequate.

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-09-2016 at 04:12 PM.
Anfanuts is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,982
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
What tyres was that car running on?
Pirelli P-Zero's.
Anfanuts is offline  
post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 10:00 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kitsap, WA
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
I hope this discussion is aimed and seen at understanding SZ's better as not just as "faux-Zagato Milanos" (as often mistakenly said here) and NOT a bashing of the car it was derived from.
+1

Also, we can talk performance minutia -- lateral G figures recorded by some magazine decades ago -- until we're blue in the face. We can also argue about whether you can out perform an SZ with a modified Milano indefinitely. The bottom line is that a new Volkswagen GTI will run circles around either at the track for less money which to me, makes outright performance irrelevant -- it's more how the car feels, sounds, responds -- and how it makes the driver feel. Look at the Ferrari F40 -- even the last generation 458 was quicker around Fiorano. You could probably tune a 430 to be quicker. Does that make the F40 less special? Nope.

The big question this thread should serve to answer is what the SZ is exactly and how it is physically different from its platform-mates. Anything else is subjective.
Anfanuts likes this.
RoryJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 10:03 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
Thanks to folks who know these cars better and clarify what it is. I have started a document to compare side-by-side specs with a 75 Quad to this end but it is woefully inadequate.
Yes, this should be !
I know that this can be understood a bit arrogant, I think to know a lot of this car. But I can understand that it's not so easy to transfer that I know here. There are language problem, my english is not so good... And than I think that in US or in other areas of the world Alfa Romeo is something a little strange, just "exotic". That different from me.... Alfa Romeo cars are ususally in Italy, I grow up with Alfa cars. I know every model builted from 1970 not because I've studied or I've seen it on a magazine or other. I've seen cars on the road, in parking, in the garage of my uncle of all over. Than I go often to Arese Museum, 2 o 3 times a year, I'm member of the Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo, I partecipate to many meeting and events like 1000 Miglia, etc.
All this to try to find a way to explane ES 30-SZ.... This car is not a tunned 75. It was the maximum level never reached by Alfa Romeo in 1988. It's the sum of experience and knowledge of a so prestigius brand, expecially the race knowledge, and the car was developmented by the race department, and the production wasn't do by usually workers, but handmade by Zagato. Perhaps it's possible to understand how much this car was important like "emblema" if you consider that the tyres, Pirelli PZero, (the true, builted with kevlar, not those you can buy today, of really less quality....), were developmented by Pirelli and builted just only for this car and for the Ferrari F40.
A good way to start to understand what really this car means is to visit the website: Alfa Romeo SZ ( ES-30 ) maintened by my friend Eduard.
Anfanuts likes this.
nivolamaster is offline  
post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 10:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoryJ View Post
+1

Also, we can talk performance minutia -- lateral G figures recorded by some magazine decades ago -- until we're blue in the face. We can also argue about whether you can out perform an SZ with a modified Milano indefinitely. The bottom line is that a new Volkswagen GTI will run circles around either at the track for less money which to me, makes outright performance irrelevant -- it's more how the car feels, sounds, responds -- and how it makes the driver feel. Look at the Ferrari F40 -- even the last generation 458 was quicker around Fiorano. You could probably tune a 430 to be quicker. Does that make the F40 less special? Nope.

The big question this thread should serve to answer is what the SZ is exactly and how it is physically different from its platform-mates. Anything else is subjective.

Great !!! This is the true point !!!
I'm totaly agree !
Anfanuts likes this.
nivolamaster is offline  
post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 10:11 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kitsap, WA
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivolamaster View Post
Perhaps it's possible to understand how much this car was important like "emblema" if you consider that the tyres, Pirelli PZero, (the true, builted with kevlar, not those you can buy today, of really less quality....), were developmented by Pirelli and builted just only for this car and for the Ferrari F40.
Thank you for all the good info!

An interesting side note, Pirelli is beginning to tune it's new P-Zero to individual models again. There are many different specifications of tire, each designed for specific cars but all under the P-Zero name. They have special markings and model numbers to distinguish and the differences can be large.

Also, tire technology has come a long way since the original P-Zero that was on the F40 and SZ. The new tires (were they available in proper sizes for these cars, which they are not) would be significantly superior to the old style P-Zero, kevlar or no.
Anfanuts likes this.
RoryJ is offline  
post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,982
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivolamaster View Post
Yes, this should be ! I know that this can be understood a bit arrogant, I think to know a lot of this car. But I can understand that it's not so easy to transfer that I know here. There are language problem, my english is not so good...
I just PM'd you to share e-mails to continue developing a more comprehensive spec sheet on the SZ. Ed knows a lot, I chat regularly, but is too busy to share. B
Anfanuts is offline  
post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 11:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoryJ View Post
Thank you for all the good info!

An interesting side note, Pirelli is beginning to tune it's new P-Zero to individual models again. There are many different specifications of tire, each designed for specific cars but all under the P-Zero name. They have special markings and model numbers to distinguish and the differences can be large.

Also, tire technology has come a long way since the original P-Zero that was on the F40 and SZ. The new tires (were they available in proper sizes for these cars, which they are not) would be significantly superior to the old style P-Zero, kevlar or no.

The progress should drive to be better, but it's not alsways so.... The original P Zero on SZ where wonderful, the best tyre I had. Than I put some "new" P Zero tyres, before the "Assimetric", than the "Red" and than the "Black". Nothing in comparisation... Now I have the Pirelli Cinturato, not bad...
nivolamaster is offline  
post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 05:38 AM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,982
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
My SZ had the original P-Zero's but I changed them when bought to a well recommended tire. I did retain in a set of spare parts a NOS set of P-Zereos, stored well, but they are old so I am conflicted about what to do with them.

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-10-2016 at 05:42 AM.
Anfanuts is offline  
post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 06:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
My SZ had the original P-Zero's but I changed them when bought to a well recommended tire. I did retain in a set of spare parts a NOS set of P-Zereos, stored well, but they are old so I am conflicted about what to do with them.
I've still have the original set, but tyres are old and dangerous to use. SZ need good tyres, expecially on wet road. You live in a warm place, but believe me, in Europe so many SZ drivers crashed the car with wet, rain or cold road....
Anfanuts likes this.
nivolamaster is offline  
post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 12:33 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivolamaster View Post
That's mine. It's not the SZ, mine is an ES-30, the pre-serie of SZ. They builted 38 prova cars, than destroyed. Only 2 of that cars were survived, mine and that is in Alfa Museum in Arese.
Thats funny, because I have a different story from a local ES 30 owner in an article here. You can translate it with Google. The guy is serious Alfa fan and mechanic, actually building cars. Well, he was in France and bought his car in parts from Sbarro styling school and built it up again. According to his info there were built only 4 ES 30 prototypes of which 3 were totally crashed and this last car was transferred to the Sbarro styling shool for studying. After they lost interest it was sold together with another car to Norway. Now the worlds only ES30 car according to the owner!

From local newspaper:

Østlandets Blad - Skorpen har verdens eneste

And Archive:

http://archive.is/KAHR7

Google translate:

It has serial number 004, and it was only made four copies. The first three cars were used for crash tests, thus Tom Skorpen in Drøbak the only remaining issue. No wonder Alfa Romeo enthusiast is proud of his car.

DRØBAK: In 1988 developed Alfa Romeo model SZ. An issue that was only made red and which were produced in 1000 copies and is still a sought-after model among connoisseurs. But before the model was put into production was handmade four prototypes. The first three were used for different types of testing, including crash tests. The fourth prototype was designed with the views in motor shows around Europe. After a lifetime in the spotlight fell 004, which is the car's serial number, on a design school in France, where it after being picked apart into pieces of students gathered dust in a corner. Until Tom crust from Carozzeri Drøbak came to visit.

Were all fired up.

- We noted this car fairly quickly and thought it was fun that they had a SZ standing. And when we opened the engine compartment so that the serial number was 004 so it boiled a little extra. Then we realized that this was a truly rare treat. We were going to buy about 15 cars from Franco Sbarro in design school, and we got negotiated until a package where we got this purchase. He had in fact no longer need for it, smiles Tom Skorpen who for 20 years has managed an Alfa Romeo workshop and who is a real enthusiast of the Italian vehicle type.
What Skorpen got home with him was a car in parts.
- When we took the car and proceeded to screw it together was great joy when it turned out that most of the parts came along and was intact. Somehow we have got, but we have obtained via Alfa Romeo enthusiasts around the world. The hardest part was four small headlights, which we had to pay 30,000 kroner for. The rear wing was also pricey. Now it is only trifles that remains, and a full paint remaining before the vehicle is ready for the road.

Interesting story!

Actually the no 4 car is pictured here:

http://home.wxs.nl/~evdbeek/prova.html

How do these claimes add up? 4 ES 30 and the rest were SZ pre production models??

Any comment Mr Nivolamaster?

Besides that congrats to Alfanuts with a very nice SZ in Texas. This car was the top of the transaxle line, and a surprise at the time of introduction that Alfa in 91 still had the stuff to make a desirable sportscar!

A couple of drawings of the SZ steel body.

G.
Attached Images
  
Anfanuts likes this.

Last edited by Gabor K.; 11-10-2016 at 03:34 PM.
Gabor K. is offline  
post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,982
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
I get the impression that this was the last victory of the "old-school Alfa car guys" over the bean counters. I bought the book Umberto recommended avbove. Cant wait to arrive. Thanks, B
Anfanuts is offline  
post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 12:25 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Thats funny, because I have a different story from a local ES 30 owner in an article here. You can translate it with Google. The guy is serious Alfa fan and mechanic, actually building cars. Well, he was in France and bought his car in parts from Sbarro styling school and built it up again. According to his info there were built only 4 ES 30 prototypes of which 3 were totally crashed and this last car was transferred to the Sbarro styling shool for studying. After they lost interest it was sold together with another car to Norway. Now the worlds only ES30 car according to the owner!

From local newspaper:

Østlandets Blad - Skorpen har verdens eneste

And Archive:

http://archive.is/KAHR7

Google translate:

It has serial number 004, and it was only made four copies. The first three cars were used for crash tests, thus Tom Skorpen in Drøbak the only remaining issue. No wonder Alfa Romeo enthusiast is proud of his car.

DRØBAK: In 1988 developed Alfa Romeo model SZ. An issue that was only made red and which were produced in 1000 copies and is still a sought-after model among connoisseurs. But before the model was put into production was handmade four prototypes. The first three were used for different types of testing, including crash tests. The fourth prototype was designed with the views in motor shows around Europe. After a lifetime in the spotlight fell 004, which is the car's serial number, on a design school in France, where it after being picked apart into pieces of students gathered dust in a corner. Until Tom crust from Carozzeri Drøbak came to visit.

Were all fired up.

- We noted this car fairly quickly and thought it was fun that they had a SZ standing. And when we opened the engine compartment so that the serial number was 004 so it boiled a little extra. Then we realized that this was a truly rare treat. We were going to buy about 15 cars from Franco Sbarro in design school, and we got negotiated until a package where we got this purchase. He had in fact no longer need for it, smiles Tom Skorpen who for 20 years has managed an Alfa Romeo workshop and who is a real enthusiast of the Italian vehicle type.
What Skorpen got home with him was a car in parts.
- When we took the car and proceeded to screw it together was great joy when it turned out that most of the parts came along and was intact. Somehow we have got, but we have obtained via Alfa Romeo enthusiasts around the world. The hardest part was four small headlights, which we had to pay 30,000 kroner for. The rear wing was also pricey. Now it is only trifles that remains, and a full paint remaining before the vehicle is ready for the road.

Interesting story!

Actually the no 4 car is pictured here:

Pre Production Cars / Teste cars / Prove

How do these claimes add up? 4 ES 30 and the rest were SZ pre production models??

Any comment Mr Nivolamaster?

Besides that congrats to Alfanuts with a very nice SZ in Texas. This car was the top of the transaxle line, and a surprise at the time of introduction that Alfa in 91 still had the stuff to make a desirable sportscar!

A couple of drawings of the SZ steel body.

G.

I know about the car uncompleted in Norway. But some pieces and parts make a car ?
The true is that my car is officially know by Alfa Romeo Register like ES-30 SZ prototype, and it's the only know (more the car of the Museum, on 75 Imsa race chassis with the SZ body, without chassis number).
And it's totaly false that they builted 4 pre-serie car. Mine is the 16th... The official documents speaks about 28, some about no less than 24...
You can see a specific topic on Eduard web site, with pictures of my car. At firs sight the car looks like a normal SZ, but there are so many different things, small and big. For the 90 years of Zagato I was special guest in the "Spettacolo Sportivo" in Zandvoort, Holland. There it was possible to compare cars, (more than 60 SZ where there !!!), and if you put a normal SZ near mine you can see a lot...
And than, there were differences in SZ too. The production was not industrial, and so is normal to see something different in different cars, expecially in the years. For example, the first cars builted are usually more powerful and fast than the others...

About RZ, I can tell you that are still existing around 15 cars builted by Zagato but not recognized by Alfa Romeo.... In 1993 Zagato had many financial problems, and they builted these cars with parts they had in the factory, and the cars were sold expecially in UK. So now you can find one of these cars and if you check the chassis number with Alfa Romeo, it doesn't exist...
nivolamaster is offline  
post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 12:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
p.s.: I have no news about crash tests on SZ. I really believe that they didn't do. SZ had a limited homologation, in that time it was no necessary to do crash tests with that type of homogation....
nivolamaster is offline  
post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 12:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Marino
Posts: 30
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
I get the impression that this was the last victory of the "old-school Alfa car guys" over the bean counters. I bought the book Umberto recommended avbove. Cant wait to arrive. Thanks, B
That's true. It was the last car without elettronic helps... The mechanic is a very high level, the car must stay on the road alone, without elettronic magic things..... Torsional stiffness, soffisticate suspension and setting of the wheels camber, weight distribution, centering and lowering the center of gravity: all things than now we have forgotten, now is really more cheap to put elettronic helps...
nivolamaster is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome