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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-20-2016, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Le Monstre, tres terrifiant!!
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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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A brief update here on the ONE "public" US SZ. I am now aware of 8 here (1 FS) and one on a boat coming (FS). There may be more hiding out? Most are owned by rich and/or very private and/or non-Alfisti collectors. I correspond with several. I have put on about 3500 km (2000 miles) since March 2016 and it is HARD not to put on more. Up from <15k km bought to 18.5k km now. That is about 25% of its lifetime mileage in 5 months (away 2 mos). Still not bad for a 25 y/o car. And, yea, picked up a couple of small rock chips. Fred Frey asked me earlier if I was going to drive it and I replied, "Hell yes". It is just a great drivers car. Has all the usable power you need to get on it and the handling is sublime. It just goes where you point it effortlessly, confidently and quickly. I have never felt uncomfortable in tight or fast turns. I'd like to trackday it some day to see just how hard you have to push it to get it out but there are too many oaksd along the roads here to try that. It is sprung pretty harsh and the seats are pretty spartan under the leather, not at all like a Milano (Verde) at all, and can be downright uncomfortable on rough local back roads. With the cats out it sounds better - a great low grunt above 3500 rpm unlike a modern low capacity turbo engine whoosh. Kinda 454 Stingray-like but not that deep or loud.

I take it out a lot and it always gets head-snaps and photos, and take it to local car shows, club events and tours, and next to the COTA SVRA car show next weekend, and to a Giulia launch party at the dealer for display in Nov. At a big car show recently, the tuners were most interested. They said for a 25 y/o design it looked "slammed" before they invented the word. Most folks think it is a modern car and are shocked to hear the design is 27 y/o. Definitely a good buy.
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Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (
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) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (
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) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56
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- for the heck of it now!!!
- Dijonaise- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (
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) - for the 2017 Euro trip -
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- "PF Ziggy" - 1991 ES-30 Sprint Zagato #550 - for pure hedonism now -
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Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black -
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- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (
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) -
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- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (
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) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog -
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Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog -
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Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog -
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Dijonaise's 2017 6 week, 4400 mile Euro Driving Trip blog -
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Dijonaise's 2019, 5 week, 3800 mile Euro Driving Trip blog -
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-01-2016, 03:14 AM
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I have done about 30,000 km. in my car, in many different conditions. I drove it from Italy to Holland and back in less than a week, (3.000 km. !). I drove it on tracks (Monza, Imola, Zandvoort, Arese), on motorways and in small country or mountain roads. My car has some peculiarities, such as the rear suspension (it comes from the 75 that ran in the World Championship Tourism in 1988), or a more powerful engine with approximately 1,000 rpm more than the standard SZ. The car always performs very well, has an impressive cornering, especially on wide curves and fast. The car is really neutral, it is hard to obtain oversteering, and if you want it, the car comes back inline alone, without using gas or steering.
The only difficulties are with sharp bends, which is a bit hard to fit in, and especially in case of wet or damp, even more if it's cold. The tires are really important. And avoid to use low gears ....
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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BTW, that is NOT a Ferrari sticker. The car resides near Austin, TX.
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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
It is sprung pretty harsh and the seats are pretty spartan under the leather, not at all like a Milano (Verde) at all, and can be downright uncomfortable on rough local back roads.
Can you elaborate a little more on the difference in driving experience between the SZ and the Milano Verde? Most of us (myself included) have never driven an SZ and are curious to know how the car actually feels different, besides the aesthetics.
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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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From my two drives in a nice lower miles and not worn out Milano Quad totaling about 90 miles on mixed roads: Comparatively, the SZ is a lot tighter, no body lean/roll, feels like it is on a track, actually sprung pretty hard and even harsh and uncomfortable on rough roads (great on smoother roads for which it was meant), steering is very tight and responsive, if your attention wanders off or you reach for something, you can be in a ditch pretty quickly, it is clearly more throttle responsive (~225+ chipped w/o cats vs 192 hp), it is hard to break it loose and if you do it comes back in naturally pretty quickly. Rated top speed is 172 but is higher chipped and w/o cats (3.90 r/e). By comparison the Milano Quad just felt slushy and "rolly" and more comfortable on rough roads. I know Milano guys who love their cars as nice spirited driver sedans, BUT there is no comparison with the level of prep done to an SZ by Lancia rally car engineers and AutoDelta as derived from the 75 Evoluzione racers. It is a slightly detuned 75 Evo. David Cironi on Petrolicous does a nice drive review of the 75 Evo and SZ. Some skeptics say it is just a 75 in a faux-Zagato skin. Ok, have they driven one? An SZ expert responded to me that the brakes alone are significantly upgraded from a 75, as are all other systems. "Rear brake discs are not bigger, only thicker and ventilated. Plus an adapter etc. between the calipers (?). Front brakes are larger and higher, etc. than the ones for the 75. The brake pad material has another composition than for the 75. Calipers are different and from lighter metal etc. etc. Master brake cylinder is bigger, brake force divider looks the same but divides braking force different compared to 75 ones, etc." And the brakes are not known as a high point on the SZ compared to other components. WIth all the new paddle-shift and Giulia slushbox tranny, I am glad I bought the SZ.

PS: I am not dissing Milanos, any more than I would diss my beloved Giulia sedan's performance compared to a Milano. Just different cars.

PSS: and to be honest, the SZ driving position for a 6'2" person and seat is not as comfortable as a Milano. The comparison is like a 105 Giulia/Berlina sedan compared to a spider/GTV.
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Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-08-2016 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Add PS
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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 10:45 AM
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Thanks, Alfanuts... I enjoyed reading that. Totally understand you're not ragging on Milanos, I had assumed that an SZ would feel very different and much more focused than a stock Milano Verde. Very interesting to hear your thoughts.
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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 01:16 PM
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You can make a 75/Milano out accelerate, out turn, out brake an SZ for WAY less than the entry fee of an SZ... that doesn't make it "better" inherently; a GTV6 would be better as a platform to accomplish this as it has a shorter wheelbase than the Milano and weighs less, but getting into a Milano is very cheap indeed.

To clear up a few things, and not meant to contradict any previous post:

1) the brake calipers are identical between the Milano/75 and SZ, only the SZ had a spacer in the rear rotor. Front Brembo alloy, rear ATE iron. Same 48mm front pistons, same 38mm rear pistons, same cast bodies, etc. I can't comment on pad compounds as original.
2) the SZ front brake rotors in front were ~285 millimeters vs ~270mm for the Milano/75.
3) the SZ rear brake rotors were only 10mm thicker (vented), otherwise identical in fitment.
4) the SZ had a 3.91 final drive which accounts for most of the acceleration time difference (3.55 final drive for Milano Verde/QV America 3.0).
5) Milano Verde had ABS and would out-stop an SZ all things equal at lower speed, without question; this is not to say that "performance" is greater or lesser in every sterile environment. The Milano Gold and other 75 had a 22mm ATE master cylinder and heavily front-biased brake prop valve. The SZ had a 23.6/8mm ATE master cylinder with slightly more rear bias in the valve (lower spring pressure in the diaphragm).
6) factory alignment specs for the SZ show more aggressive negative camber and had wider tires than any Milano/75. Obviously spring rates and other changes were implemented, but they really are minor.

Some other desirable things that are not easily bolted on or "borrowed" from an SZ for a Milano/75 owner are the different spindle with larger shaft and DeDion (larger bearings) and transaxle cooler, but these really only come into play for race duty.

I would absolutely love to run against an SZ on any mountain/curvy/canyon road, with me in my own personal Mostro (a lightly modified Milano Verde) or my GTV6 12V.
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that. Finding spec info on the SZ is pretty difficult. I got the above from Ed. He really gets "excited" when you compare the base cars. Dunno if I'd call front coilovers vs torsion bar, the rear Watts linkage, and all uniball chassis "minor". There is a thread on improving the front end on a 75 and it is not a minor proposition, especially coilovers. I can say the difference in ride/navigaiton was significant in a good way and not always in a good way for a touring GT in terms of harsh so I'd have to believe the rear springs are sharper too. This is detuned 75 Evo. Cironi says the ride is nice compared to the 75 Evo. The chassis sits much lower, in fact has a hydraulic lift system to lift 2" (up or down, not like Citroen) for bumps. Dunno if the Milano was G'd but SZ is rated at 1.1 and has been tested up to 1.4. That is a very impressive number, with a 0.30 vs 0.34 Cd. Again, not dissing 75's, just comparing my build and ride observations. It would be like comparing a stock Giulia/TI to a TI Super or GTA. My GT alternative to the SZ was going to be a nicely built GTA-R or GTAm-R but they are pricey too. And then it's still an R and the SZ performs better. I have plenty of 105's already too.

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-08-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 10:06 PM
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SZ and 75 are two different cars, no comparisons are possible: the SZ is a race car on the legal road, expecially about chassis and handling; the 75 is a sedan. SZ is still now the road car with more G in curve (1,45 G.).
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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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I agree and have tried to say that but some folks cannot know the difference. Ed vdB just sputters at the comparison also. Now, if that SZ was carbon fiber and not 2700 pounds of fiberglass and Modar epoxy . . . I am glad to have a dialogue on this here; these cars are not known or well understood here.
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nivolamaster View Post
SZ and 75 are two different cars, no comparisons are possible: the SZ is a race car on the legal road, expecially about chassis and handling; the 75 is a sedan. SZ is still now the road car with more G in curve (1,45 G.).
1.45G???? Can you back that up?
Because that is a LOT for a road car, that is far from being feather weight and on (90's) road car tyres!

Engine bay pics???

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 12:44 AM
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1.45G???? Can you back that up?
Because that is a LOT for a road car, that is far from being feather weight and on (90's) road car tyres!

Engine bay pics???
you can see here: Interesting things to know)

"The SZ can pull up to 1.4 G. in cornering.... I think it is still the champion of the production cars....

Ferrari 360 F1: 1.13 g.
Ferrari 355 F1: 1.13 g.
Chrysler Viper VT 1.11 g. ( what a surprise !! )
Lamborgini Diablo VT 1.09 g.
Porsche 911 Carrera 1.06 g.
Lotus Esprit V8 1.06 g.
Ferrari 550 1.04 g.
BMW "M Coupe" 1.03 g.
Audi S4 Avant: 0.96 g.
Volvo V70R AWD: 0.90 g"

Information from the Italian carmagazine "Quattroruote".
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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 01:05 AM
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I'm not sure you know how car was develompent. There is a wonderful book to read about it written by Roberto Piatti (Libro ALFA ROMEO SZ (INGLESE) - di Piatti Roberto).

The chassis came from the A.R. 75 race version (1988 Turism World Championship and IMSA from Giro d'Italia 1988). The man behind the car was Giorgio Pianta, from Autodelta and from Abarth (a lot of car winner of World Championship, from Alfa 33, GTA, GTAM, Alfa 75, 155 and 156, to Lancia 037, Delta S4, Delta 4WD, Delta 16V, Delta Integrale and Delta HF).
SZ has a great pedegree.......
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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by nivolamaster View Post

"The SZ can pull up to 1.4 G. in cornering.... I think it is still the champion of the production cars....
Ahhhhhhhh, yeah. There's those 2 words "up to".
No offence, and I'm here because I love Alfa's too, but this seems to written by a rather enthusiastic Alfa nut. Real G force numbers are measured and quoted at a continuous rate, not "UP TO"............
Instantaineous numbers are always more impressive and dramatic.

What tyres was that car running on?

A current model Porsche 911 GT3 with its torque vectoring diff and much bigger, much stickier tyres can pull around 1.1G cornering.
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Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
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