ABS failure, rock hard pedal - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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ABS failure, rock hard pedal

After driving in rainy traffic today, I stopped for lunch. When I started back up and left, my brake pedal was rock hard and mostly ineffective. I have previously replaced the original ABS pump with a used one from a Jag XJ6(?) I found on eBay. The accumulator bottle and about everything else under the hood was really hot from sitting in traffic. I'm going to let the car cool down and start it up later to see if the pump comes on to pressurize the system. Could excessive heat in standing traffic cause the unit to momentarily fail? Any advice is appreciated!

'88 Milano Verde
'84 GTV6 Maratona racecar
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MCAalfa View Post
After driving in rainy traffic today, I stopped for lunch. When I started back up and left, my brake pedal was rock hard and mostly ineffective. I have previously replaced the original ABS pump with a used one from a Jag XJ6(?) I found on eBay. The accumulator bottle and about everything else under the hood was really hot from sitting in traffic. I'm going to let the car cool down and start it up later to see if the pump comes on to pressurize the system. Could excessive heat in standing traffic cause the unit to momentarily fail? Any advice is appreciated!
Yes, I've had mine overheat. I just put a nice heat shield between the pump assembly and the exhaust manifolds and that seemed to be pretty effective. Although it would still overheat on really hot days...

88 Anthracite Milano Verde - SOLD

Last edited by loosemoose17; 07-01-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-01-2013, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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That sounds like good news! Looks to me like we have the same car. Anthracite is the proper name for the awesome grey? I love it because it's stealthy in certain light. I heard recently that there are only about 200 Verde's left in the state. Cool car.

'88 Milano Verde
'84 GTV6 Maratona racecar
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-02-2013, 07:23 AM
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I have had the same problem few times. The ABS system on those cars are very poor design and you can get into an accident very easily. I wish mine was not ABS system and conversion is not that simple.

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-02-2013, 05:47 PM
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The system is fine. It is alfa for putting it over the header. I think they found the hottest part in the whole car to put the pump. Use some tinfoil over the header and over the pump will help a lot. But every one else put the pump in a cool spot sabb on the other side of the fender. some have it low in front were the air is cool. But for some unknown resin alfa thought it would be good to put it on more or less a stove.

1987 black Milano Verde, 1987 (made in 1986)blue $200 gold with ABS and LSD
1972 White spider 2000 Veloce
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-02-2013, 05:53 PM
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Well, the system isn't really fine. It's a first-gen ABS system and has some downright dangerous failure modes. In more modern ABS systems, if the ABS fails you still have fully functional normal brakes with vacuum boost.

Tom

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-03-2013, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giorgio68 View Post
I have had the same problem few times. The ABS system on those cars are very poor design and you can get into an accident very easily. I wish mine was not ABS system and conversion is not that simple.
Actually the conversion is not that bad at all, hardest (most painful) part is swapping out the pedal box, but with the right tools that isn't too bad.

Kevin

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 11:43 PM
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We have had a few very hot days in a row around here in the SF Bay Area, so the ABS overheated and quit working on my '88 Verde. I have been through this not a few times before. Pull over to the side of the road, or a parking lot, pop the hood and let the ABS pump cool down...it's a real pain and not safe! For the most part the ABS has been reliable and it is only on hot days and sitting in traffic, when the pump quits working. I have heat shields on both the exhaust manifold and on the ABS pump.

Since parts to maintain the Tevis Mk II ABS seem to be increasingly hard to find, I am thinking of converting to the non-ABS, vacuum boost Milano system. Or perhaps relocating the ABS pump under the fender, or some other location where there are lower temperatures vs sitting right over the exhaust manifold. Any thoughts/advice on which way to go on this?

At any rate, once the ABS system is removed, and the standard brake booster, new pedal box with MC is installed, can a standard Milano Gold ARC panel/eletronics be used in place of the Platinum/Verde version ? The ABS warning light is no longer needed so I am thinking of swapping ARC panels as well if I make the conversion.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

Last edited by Timo; 06-14-2019 at 12:53 AM.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 10:32 AM
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164s can suffer from something like the above, where in really hot stop and go driving, the brake pedal can start to harden up and apply the brakes. Had that happen a couple of times through the years. Changing the master can cure the problem, but I suspect that changing the fluid is what really does it. Replacing the OE brake fluid with the ultra high temp fluid has proved to be effective otherwise, the master and hosing getting too hot when there is not air flow around the system in hot stop and go driving, even with the radiator fan running. Installing a small ducted fan near the air cleaner box, piping outside air toward the master, etc, seems to help. Maybe some fiberglass insulation stuffed under the master would also help.

My theory anyway.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
164s can suffer from something like the above, where in really hot stop and go driving, the brake pedal can start to harden up and apply the brakes. Had that happen a couple of times through the years. Changing the master can cure the problem, but I suspect that changing the fluid is what really does it. Replacing the OE brake fluid with the ultra high temp fluid has proved to be effective otherwise, the master and hosing getting too hot when there is not air flow around the system in hot stop and go driving, even with the radiator fan running. Installing a small ducted fan near the air cleaner box, piping outside air toward the master, etc, seems to help. Maybe some fiberglass insulation stuffed under the master would also help.

My theory anyway.
Thanks for the reply and feedback Del. It is interesting that you mention a fan. I do in fact have a small 3" diameter fan mounted near to where the horns are, behind the front driver's side bumper. There is flexible ducting running from this fan, coming up through the front core support eventually exiting out from behind the battery directly on to the ABS booster pump motor. It blows relatively cool air directly on the motor*. This cooling fan does help quite a bit, and it is only on the hottest of days, in slow moving traffic when the ABS pump quits running due to overheating.

If I decide to keep the ABS I believe a possible solution, is relocating the booster pump motor to where it is in some kind of air stream, or at least in considerably cooler air as opposed siting in the engine bay, right over an exhaust manifold! Perhaps installing it under the driver's side front fender? Or near to where the horns are located?

Even if I get the ABS to work properly in all conditions, the system is becoming obsolete, and more difficult to find parts for.

All in all the Tevis MkII ABS is a great braking system, when it works. When it fails it could very well be catastrophic. Like another Alfa BB poster once said; I want to drive the car, and not constantly diagnose a faulty ABS.

*No holes were drilled for this installation. The fan is the type that is used to cool racing suits and helmets.

Best regards,

Tim

Last edited by Timo; 06-13-2019 at 10:22 PM.
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