Alfa Romeo TZ2 - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 04:19 AM
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I guess the owner / promoter should shime in with his tally on the build... if anything, I appreciate the awareness it builds for the TZ2 and for the brand in general... and the tail wind it generates for my humble 105 GT Jr and GTV and Spider and 4C...

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post #17 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 05:26 AM
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The late Gary Valiant called these cars badge restorations. A car was built around a badge.

Unless the leftover original pieces were cut up and destroyed, there is the risk they will come back as the original car.

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post #18 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbadaro View Post
I have yet to understand the obsession with exact perfect preservation of every last original nut and bolt on these unique master pieces... museum cureators and historians can document which shredded body panel has been welded and which rusted through componant has been replaced but enthusiasts should be a thankful that a classic of this caliber has been given a new lease on life... my two cents... I have yet to see a replica of one in real life much less to nitpick about originality of every last componant...

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It is because it is the race history of these "race" cars that determines their value. Imagine sitting in the seat that the original race drivers sat in, feeling the original steering wheel, pushing the same pedals, etc.

And as ossodiseppia said this car might end up as 2 cars if the next owner is not very careful. In fact if I was rich enough to purchase this car I would have a restorer repair the original chassis, using this new chassis where necessary and then the car is with out any doubt what the chassis/VIN number says. I would then ensure that there were no chassis pieces left over.

Yes some race cars have needed new chassis' and bodies over the years, but when done during period race history the car continues, but nowadays these cars are just old race cars and originality should be maintained as much as absolutely possible, even if it means painstakingly straightening a chassis tube.

This car will sell for a fraction of a TZ2 that still contains its original chassis, etc.
Pete
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post #19 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaTZ2 View Post
I explain everything exactly on the website. I show everything. There is no secret.
That is simply not true. Claims are made, but nothing is explained.

From the "Details" page:
Quote:
The Alfa TZ 2#750113 was totally restored 2 years ago and finished 2016 in spring.
The frame was rebuilt new in italy by a frame specialist for Alfa racing cars.
The engine was completely rebuilt by a engeneer and specialist for racing engines and body construction.
This company also did the assemble work for this car.
The body was totally rebuilt new also by the specialist in Austria.
The original old body parts and frame and parts are still available.
Not naming names gives a shady appearance. I first thought "body was totally rebuilt new also by the specialist in Austria" was in reference to Bernhard Fleischhacker of Touring Garage, but he wrote me he was not involved with #113. So, who was it? Who were the specialists building the frame and engine? Why keep this a secret? Can you see how the absence of such information flies in the face of the claim that you "explain everything exactly on the website"?

Furthermore, from the "Against all Rumours" page:
Quote:
In the past, somebody spread unverified rumours about that TZ2 VIN 113,
that It is a fake or replika, but nobody had hard evidence for that rumour.

Then this rumour was propagatet, but It was all only to know from hearsay.

To scotch this rumour forever, we show the conclusive evidence that this TZ 2VIN 113 is no fake or replica.
The car has a new frame with the transfered original VIN number from the original destroyed accident frame,
also the original italian documents ( title)we can show, and at least, old frame parts, old body parts & old technical parts
​are still available and will be delivered with the car when It will be sold.

​For serious enquiries please send us a E-Mail
The pictures are of the finished car only (and some work done on the engine). But no pictures of the accident damage. No pictures of the cars and/or body or engine as received. No pictures of the incremental restoration of the body -- or what happened to the old parts. Specifically, there are zero pictures showing how exactly the chassis number was transferred from the old frame to the new one -- which I consider to be the the core of the claim of originality. Then, there's no evidence of a paper trail or that the papers shown actually belonged to this car. It's all left to be a mystery. And so, it's actually the lack of documentation that keeps propagating the rumour of a fake or replica. The "trust me, it's real" claims without showing evidence simply doesn't work for these cars. One doesn't have to proof that a fake exists, but that a car is real. So far, I haven't seen anything that would substantiate that the claims that this car, nice as it may be, in fact is real.
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Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

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post #20 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:16 AM
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hi,

for clarification

it is described in the offer -> ..... specialist in austria.....

two people contact me this day for more information to the build and ask to the originality, history .........

people ask me for my opinion. i can not say anything

i wonder myself comes from zero to the daylight without insider information previously about the existence before a crashcar - damage-TZ2 as basic.

on this AlfaBB discussion and pics i m looking first time this car.

i can guarantee in writing but i have absolute nothing to do with this car and at this time no serios informations from background.

has someone information about the owner and price ?

br
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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:51 AM
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I suppose the key learning is about the direct relationship between full disclosure and valuation appraisals... but I for one am happy to see one of those beauties complete and whole in any level of originality... point taken about original pannels and frame parts finding their way into another ressurection and distorting values...

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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:00 PM
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Hi AlfaTZ2

Are you sure your post #9 foto - now part of this thread - is a TZ2 engine?

I cannot recognise many TZ2 features on that engine! Just compare it with the fotos of another apparently correct but recreated TZ2 engine you post in the `details` on your own web site.

More fotos would help clarify....

Thanks

Richard
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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Alfa Romeo TZ2 - sad Giulia, what have we done

Dear Alfisti, dear forum,
we were very aware that Giulia is probably badly made on the forums. But why hide? And hide from whom? There is no reason for it. Giulia is one of the best TZ2. This is fact . Personally, I will never speak a another vehicle badly. Why, because it another vehicle is not my vehicle.

Everyone has their own opinion. This is good and should be accepted. Our opinion is: we have rebuilt Giulia as it was delivered 1966 from AutoDelta. We paid attention to all the details. Now Giulia lives again , is aggressive and agile. On Giulia's website is a video of the first test ride (91km) and you have to say, Giulia is not easy to drive.But makes fun. ar1966.weebly.com

One thing now I must say. Alfa Romeo is Alfa Romeo! Whether TZ or Alfasud - whether Alfetta or 4C - whether old or new! They are Alfas and that is good. Basta.

Please sorry for my bad english.
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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 07:08 AM Thread Starter
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Dear Richard,
i will give you more information , i'll find out. The engine belongs to a friend of mine.

Kind regards
Michael
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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AlfaTZ2 View Post
Dear Richard,
i will give you more information , i'll find out. The engine belongs to a friend of mine.

Kind regards
Michael
That's odd. Most of us thought the engine belongs to the car in the pictures.
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 07:25 AM
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I have seen your other thread, and it saddens me.

We have a saying:

"There are those that build, and those that complain"

Ignore the complainers. They live in a small world. So long as your actions are not fraudulent, their complaints have no merit.

Interestingly, to me at least, is that historic aircraft can have every piece replaced and still be recognized as the true item. The "existence" of an aircraft is the combination of its established registration plus its data plate. And the plate can be replaced by a newly-made one. Yet, these airplanes will continue to be seen as still retaining their history and provenance, and sell for millions of dollars.

Value is arbitrary. Enjoy your car.
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Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AlfaTZ2 View Post
Dear Alfisti,
see our Beauty. Giulia TZ2 / 1966.
Giulia is alive and in good health. Freshly restored, ready to race.
So, let's compare this picture that was posted as opening of the thread, showing what's claimed as original #113:



with this period picture of #113:



Without entering into the discussion on what actually links the currently presented car with the (wreck of?) #113, it pops up at the "seven errors game" that many features do not fit the original car: the cut in the headlights plexi for fog lamps and the position of its retaining screw; the size, shape and orientation of the rear side air scoops (small air outlet in 1966; large air intake for rear brakes in current form); the type of wheels (current car has the same wheels front and rear, not 1966 configuration - so even the wheels went lost with the accident, together with frame, bonnet, doors, engine, central body,... ?); shape of the upper air intake cut in the bonnet; front air intakes for the brakes; air intake for the driver's legs; and I could go further that way, well beyond the "seven errors" of the game.

My comment is anyway that it's a pity that, if this car is actually a "continuation" of #113, the reconstruction of it is so far away from original configuration, while a replica such as Martin Kapp's is accurate in its evocation of a 1966 TZ2.

Pity as well that most of the distorted features are usually to be found on TZ2 replicas... which use to be proposed for sale in certain north-west european countries.
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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 09:25 AM
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Don,

All I need is one photo of the original crashed chassis to be a believer ... but strangely this has not been posted. Would have been the first photo I posted if it was my car ... okay maybe second photo

I will forever think it is a shame the original chassis was not "rebuilt" instead of a brand new one, but heck not my car and I'll get over it

My understanding also, and maybe I'm wrong, is that this TZ2 is for sale, so yes proving its history is quite important. If I have got this wrong and it is not for sale: enjoy in good health!!
Pete

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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 10:03 AM
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A new thread on the same car every day just to promote the web site doesn't help much either (it appears yesterday, mods merged 3 threads into 1).

The way this car is campaigned reminds me very much of Mr. "O" times.
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Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Interestingly, to me at least, is that historic aircraft can have every piece replaced and still be recognized as the true item. The "existence" of an aircraft is the combination of its established registration plus its data plate. And the plate can be replaced by a newly-made one. Yet, these airplanes will continue to be seen as still retaining their history and provenance, and sell for millions of dollars.
I don't think you can compare planes to cars. In the US and probably other countries, planes need to be certified as airworthy, don't they? I cracked and re-welded airframe will probably not pass, but sure could be called "original". I'm sure that those who restore planes try to keep as much of the original aircraft as possible, but must be mindful of safety.

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