Tipo 33 Engine - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2016, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Alistair Muir View Post
You can see why they needed twin plugs to get everything out of them. Look at those piston tops !! Combustion chamber cut in half..
Not as bad as the Nord engine surely ... ?

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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #62 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 03:56 PM
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33 Le Mans engine

This discussion is taking senseless direction. To be honest it is reasonably irrelevant whom and when have realized the motor. The only fact that counts is that it was at Alfa Romeo feud. The solution for 33 came from Satta-Busso team on Luraghi’s request and it is sure that they could manage the whole project perfectly. The presence of Chiti and Autodelta was bonus in game and they certainly have discussed the whole idea together and (again on Luraghi’s insistence) left the realization to Chiti and his boys. The fact is that Chiti already had V8 nice and ready while hypothetic engine designed by Satta and Busso remain never explained part of project. If you consider my text for Bob Little’s “Inside the Walls” (T33 Story), you will see that I left the space for doubts, though my personal conviction is that it was Chiti’s baby. Too much similarity to ATS 100 and Ferrari 158 to be pure case. However, anyone is free to believe whatever wants. Just to clear the fact; Ray Hutton is surely fine journalist but he is not an Alfa Romeo expert and his statement means nothing to me. In this forum, the president of ASI (Italian historic Cars Association) and RIAR (Italian Alfa Romeo Registry) technical commission, late Maurizio Tabucchi, has been declared incompetent. Imagine Hutton’s authority! However, here is specification of 33 “Le Mans, long tail” engine that might be interesting for enthusiasts. (From “Alfa Romeo, vetture da competizione”)
I am sorry but it would be hard for me to translate it in English.

“Il motore, posto in posizione centrale, destinato alle vetture da competizione a Le Mans, era un 1995 cc V8 progettato dall'ing. Carlo Chiti, fondatore e responsabile della squadra corse Autodelta, il reparto corse dell'Alfa Romeo. Autentico gioiello tecnologico, costruito interamente in alluminio e magnesio, disponeva di impianto di iniezione meccanica indiretta Lucas, lubrificazione a carter secco, quattro alberi a camme in testa, e sedici candele (2 per cilindro).
Qui sono i dati:
---Motore V8 di 90°; Alesaggio 78 x Corsa 52,2; Cilindrata Unitaria cc. 249,25.
---Cilindrata totale cc.1995; Area stantuffo 47,76 cmq.
---Rapporto Corsa / Diametro 0,669
---Rapporto Corsa / Lunghezza di biella 2,31; Rapporto Compressione 10,7:1
---Potenza max. per la corsa delle 24 Ore di Le Mans, contenuta in 255 Cv-DIN a 9.400 giri.
---Potenza specifica (x Le Mans) 127,5 Cv / litro
---Coppia e regime corrispondente 20,7 Kgm-DIN a 7.500 giri.
---Metri al secondo pistoni 16,3
---Consumo specifico 250 gr. / Cv / h.
---Consumo lubrificante inferiore a 100 gr. / h.
---Monoblocco in alluminio con aspirazione centrale e scarichi esterni.
---Disassamento tra i cilindri 21 mm.
---Albero motore in acciaio di "tipo piatto" con volantino smorzatore e manovelle affiancate.
---Supporti di banco 5, Diametro mm. 60, Spessore mm. 21 (i 2 esterni ed il centrale) gli altri mm. 18
---Dimensione perni di manovella; Diametro mm. 45 - spessore mm. 20
---Dimensione spinotti Diametro mm. 20
---Cuscinetti di banco e di biella marca Wanderwell a guscio sottile
---Spinotti con boccola in bronzo; Testate in Alluminio con camera di scoppio emisferica
---Pistoni a pattino in alluminio con teste bombate e 3 segmenti di cui 2 di tenuta ed 1 raschiaolio - marca Borgo.
---Bielle in acciaio con distanza tra i centri di mm. 120
---Camicie in ghisa riportate di tipo umido; Raffreddamento ad acqua con 2 radiatori laterali e con vaso di espansione. Pressione di funzionamento 0,9 mm. di colonna d'acqua. Capacitŕ circuito litri 13.
---Distribuzione 2 valvole per cilindro e 4 assi a camme. Comando nella parte anteriore del blocco cilindri di tipo misto con treno di ruote dentate e catene.
---Alberi a camme in acciaio da cementazione e su 5 supporti.
---Angolo tra le valvole 48° ( 23° per l'aspirazione e 25° per lo scarico )
---Diametro valvole; Aspirazione 40,5 mm. e Scarico mm. 36.
---Alzata mm. 10,2 - Molle richiamo 2 ad elica cilindrica
---Diagramma di distribuzione; Aspirazione anticipo 50° - ritardo 70°, Scarico anticipo 50° e ritardo 70°
---Alimentazione Iniezione indiretta Lucas. Anticipo Iniezione 90° dopo il p.m.s. in aspirazione.
---Accensione con 2 candele x cilindro diametro mm. 10; Lodge RL-49
---Anticipo accensione 32° / 33° con 2 distributori Marelli ad 8 uscite e 4 bobine Marelli con transistorizzazione Bosch.
---Ordine di accensione; numerazione dei cilindri dal davanti e cilindri di destra con numero pari: 1-8-3-6 4-5-2-7
---Lubrificazione a carter secco e radiatore olio con 1 pompa di mandata e 2 di recupero. Capacitŕ olio 15 Kg. Filtraggio in parallelo con filtri.
---Aspirazione di tipo monocilindrico - Scarichi tipo 4 in 1
---Accoppiamento motore e cambio diretto - Frizione a comando idraulico
---Cambio Colotti a 6 marce + retromarcia di tipo in cascata con ingranaggi a denti dritti ed innesti a denti frontali senza sincronizzatori e comando centrale
---Rapporti = I° 3,25 - II° 2,18 - III° 1,6 - IV° 1,3 - V° 1,12 - VI° 0,96
---Velocitŕ max. singole marce; 88 - 131 - 179 - 220 - 256 - 298 Km/h
---Coppia di riduzione a dentatura spirale - Denti 11/42 pari a rapp. 3,08
---Differenziale autobloccante ZF a pioli.”
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post #63 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 07:33 PM
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ARGTAreg....the article I quoted was a period article when the engines were still being produced and when Alfa Romeo was racing the tipo 33 and journalists in my experience when stating origin, which is important, try to get their facts correct in their articles so if it was Chiti who designed it surely he would have been told by whoever he spoke to? The whole article (with a cutaway of the tipe 33/3 by "quattroruote") was very detailed about the original engine and how the engine was subsequently developed bit by bit as well as the chassis and suspension and this could only have been obtained through speaking to Alfa Romeo/Autodelta directly in my humble opinion.
Furthermore the origin of the design of the tipo 33 engine was also attested to Satta/Busso in the Italian only book by Busso as discussed previously in this thread who as already has been mentioned wrote that it was a sad day when the car was pulled from Alfa Romeo to be given to Autodelta to develop, when the bones of the original chassis and engine were designed at Alfa Romeo. Chiti subsequently changed radically the chassis in the t33/3 to be lighter and stronger and undertook the development of the engine to 2.5 and then 3 litres.
Furthermore, just to say in the book "Alfa Montreal" by Georgio Nada in Italian only it states regarding the tipo 33 engine...."non essendo ancora pronto l'8V, sulla 33 venne installato un motore a 4 cilindri dela Giulia TZ2. "il motore definitivo" afferma Busso "disegnato e costruito dall"Alfa Romeo, inizio' a girare al banco nel febbraio 1966 a cura dell'Auto Delta che ne segui;, poi, sia lo sviluppo sia l'impiego in pista". Nel giugno 1966, la 33 fu equipaggiata con il motore a 8 cilindri. Inizio' quindi la messa a punto finale della vettura.
Apart from this of course the ATS engines of Chiti had similar design characteristics but as related by Road and track magazine in 1966, the Alfa Romeo engine was notably much more oversquare...78cm x 52cm (the same as an Abarth v8 never raced) whereas the ATS was 66cm x 54.6cm to name one difference.
So as you stated there is room for doubt and I merely showed an article with another opinion about the origin. Maybe in all truth it was a joint effort but it is not easy to definitely say who is right in my opinion.

By the way the specifications of the Lemans tipo 33 car is much appreciated and since I speak fluent Italian not a problem for me to understand.
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post #64 of 64 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 03:15 PM
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"The motor, placed in a central position, destined to racing cars at Le Mans, was a 1995 cc V8 designed by Ing. Carlo Chiti, founder and leader of the team Autodelta racing, Alfa Romeo's racing department. Genuine technological jewel, built entirely of aluminum and magnesium, had access to Lucas indirect mechanical injection system, dry sump lubrication, four camshafts in the head, and sixteen spark plugs (2 per cylinder).
Here are the details:
--- 90 ° V8 engine; Bore and stroke 78 x 52.2; Unitarian cc engine capacity. 249.25.
--- Total displacement cc.1995; piston area cmq 47.76.
--- Race Report / Diameter 0.669
--- Report stroke / connecting rod length of 2.31; Compression ratio 10.7: 1
--- Max. for the race of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, contained in 255-hp DIN at 9,400 rpm.
--- Specific power (x Le Mans) 127.5 hp / liter
--- Torque and speed corresponding DIN-20.7 kgm at 7,500 rpm.
--- Meters per second pistons 16.3
--- Specific consumption 250 gr. / Hp / h.
--- Lubricant consumption of less than 100 gr. / H.
--- Aluminum monobloc with central suction and external drains.
--- Misalignment between the cylinder 21 mm.
--- In the "type flat steel motor shaft" with damper flyer and cranks side by side.
--- Bench Media 5 mm diameter. 60, thickness mm. 21 (2 external and central) other mm. 18
--- Size crank pins; Mm diameter. 45 - mm thick. 20
--- Pins Size Diameter mm. 20
--- Main bearings and big-end brand Wanderwell thin shell
--- Jacks with bronze bushing; Aluminium heads with hemispherical combustion chamber
--- Pistons in aluminum shoe with domed heads and 3 segments 2 of which the sealing and scraper 1 - Borgo brand.
--- Connecting rods in steel with distance between the centers mm. 120
--- Cast iron shirts reported wet-type; Water cooling with two lateral radiators and expansion tank. Operating Pressure 0.9 mm. of water column. circuit capacity 13 liters.
--- Distribution 2 valves per cylinder and four overhead camshafts. Command in the front part of the cylinder block with mixed type of toothed wheels and chains train.
--- Camshaft in hardening steel and 5 supports.
--- Angle between valves 48 ° (23 ° to 25 ° to the suction and discharge)
--- The diameter valves; Intake 40.5 mm. and Throat mm. 36.
--- Lift mm. 10.2 - Spring-2 helical
--- Valve timing; ahead suction 50th - late 70th, early 50th and late Exhaust 70 °
--- Power Indirect injection Lucas. Injection early 90th after T.D.C. suction.
--- Ignition with spark plugs per cylinder 2 mm in diameter. 10; Lodge RL-49
--- Ignition Timing 32 ° / 33 ° with 2 Marelli distributors to 8 outputs and 4 coils Marelli transistorizzazione Bosch.
---Firing order; Numbering of cylinders from the front and right cylinders with even number: 1-8-3-6 4-5-2-7
--- Dry sump lubrication and oil cooler with pressure pump 1 and 2 recovery. Oil Capacity 15 Kg. Filtering in parallel with filters.
--- Of single cylinder type suction - Exhausts type 4 in 1
--- Engine coupling and direct exchange - hydraulically operated clutch
--- Change Colotti 6-speed + reverse gear type cascaded with straight cut gears and couplings Claw without synchronizers and central control
--- Reports = 3.25 ° I - II 2,18 - III 1.6 - 1.3 IV - V 1.12 ° - 0.96 ° VI
--- Max. individual gears; 88-131 - 179-220 - 256-298 km / h
--- Reduction Couple spiral teeth - Teeth 11/42 equal to rapp. 3.08
--- Slip Differential ZF rung. "

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