Tipo 33 Engine - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 12:17 AM
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ARGTAReg : If you have photos of the 1964 ATS 1,5L V8 engine from an overhaul or technical drawing, it would be interesting to compare with the insides of the Tipo 33 engine. We know little about the ATS engine, but something about the Tipo 33 engine here. So more info on the ATS engine is what we need!

G.

Last edited by Gabor K.; 11-05-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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post #47 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 02:07 AM
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I I do not understand continuous claiming of Giuseppe Busso’s authorship of 33 motor (chassis and the majority of general solutions were his work) as Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography) V8 for 33 as his project. Maurizio Tabucchi author of important books about Alfa Romeo (close friend of Chiti) is explicit about that: “…Luraghi’s decision was immediate; Chiti would complete 33 project, and Chiti would conceive the new engine for it, an 2 liter V8 unit…”
ARGTAReg,

I must say this discussion would look much more pleasant to me if you could refrain from pontificating against other knowledgeable people (and you did so at your own expense with Martin in the discussion over GTA/SAs) based on your admiration for the late Tabucchi.

Not only was Tabucchi not so much recognized for the accuracy of his research (see 1990s La Manovella about his 2-volumes "Alfa Romeo di produzione and his invention of a "forgotten" Alfa which was, in the end, an old Darracq design updated), but you seem quite selective in your reading.

I must correct you about "Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography)".

Quote:
Busso, Nel cuore dell'Alfa, p. 117:
"Noi comunque, nel 1964, avevamo dato inizio allo studio del motore posteriore"

translates into:
"We [intended as Satta, Busso and his collaborators] had anyway started in 1964 the study of the rear engine"
And, if it's not specific enough:
Quote:
Busso, Nel cuore dell'Alfa, p. 119:
"In principio del 1966, la 33 era stata consegnata all'Autodelta e con essa anche i pezzi staccati del motore 8 cilindri, progettato e costruito in casa da noi. Il nuovo motore comincio' a girare al banco in Autodelta il 25 febbraio e, in vettura, a Balocco, il 28 maggio."

That is:
"At the beginning of 1966, the 33 was handled out to Autodelta, and with it also the parts for the 8 cylinders engine, home designed and built by us. The new engine was first bench tested at Autodelta on February 25th, and in the car, at Balocco, on May 28th."
While Collins' and McDonough's book on 33s is at least as much packed with errors as Tabucchi's, they remark on page 18:
Quote:
"At he press conference, the designers were announced as Satta and Busso. In neglecting to include Chiti in this announcement, despite all of his work, the car's origins were indicated more clearly"
I reckon that further in the book, they make confusing statements about the engine's origin, and BTW report having seen "castings for a 2-litre V8 produced during the 1950s, again for a stillborn passenger/GT car".

I have myself researched the Arese archives for an history of the Alfa factory in the 40s and 50s, and didn't came across any plan for such a car. That doesn't rule out that the castings do exist, but I'm in doubt which project they can have been related to.
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post #48 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 06:26 AM
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All complicated by the fact Alfa and Autodelta were in effect state owned companies, Any work had to be somehow justified. Chiti had to go to Rome and explain what the money was being spent on.. Would cost cutting have played a factor in engine development and the use of as much tried and true components in any new designs ? If it was Ferrari it would be a lot clearer...

There is a history write up by an Autodelta employee that was unfinished and still being added to a while back..I think it was being put up on a facebook page (Italian) I get the picture personal views of designers pays a good part in this history it seems..

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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 01:31 PM
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Adding some more info from the Luigi Fusi, All cars from 1910!

The 33/2 Litres Sports prototypes car:

Work on the type 105.33, which was intended to compete in Sports Prototypes category races started in September 1964.
The first car was ready by the end of 1965 with a provisional TZ2 engine. Built by the experimental department at Portello it was subsequently sent to Autodelta where further units were made in various tuning stages and tested by the experimental departments of the company.

In the general layout of this model, with its new V8 engine at 90 degrees mounted at the rear, which forms an integral unit with the gearbox and independent rear axles, of particular interest is the chassi based on aeronautic design. etc.

Manager of the Alfa Romeo Designs and Experiments Department, was at that time Dr. Ing. Orazio Satta Puliga, and indeed on the lists of his Projects in 1967 the 33/2 Litri model Sport Prototypes class is listed.. page 827.

I think this is very consistent with what has been said here before that Alfa themselves were the starters of the Tipo 33 Project, and then handed the car over to Autodelta for further development!

G.
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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 02:02 PM
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ARGTAReg : If you have photos of the 1964 ATS 1,5L V8 engine from an overhaul or technical drawing, it would be interesting to compare with the insides of the Tipo 33 engine. We know little about the ATS engine, but something about the Tipo 33 engine here. So more info on the ATS engine is what we need!

G.
Hi Gabor,
I have numerous photos of ATS T100, but none of them is particulary good for confronting. However, here they are and (much better for the purpose) Ferrari 156 (mainly Chiti’s project) and Ferrari 158 (started by Chiti and then finished by Forghieri) that is 1,5 liter V8. As you can see, 156 engine is V120°, nothing like V90° of T33, while 158 engine is V90°, 8cyl. and almost identical architecture as T33. Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities. It is clear that those engines are close relatives, beside the fact that Chiti was among the most brilliant racing engine designer ever, and those motors (except ATS) confirms that.
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post #51 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 02:10 PM
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ARGTAReg,

I must say this discussion would look much more pleasant to me if you could refrain from pontificating against other knowledgeable people (and you did so at your own expense with Martin in the discussion over GTA/SAs) based on your admiration for the late Tabucchi.

Not only was Tabucchi not so much recognized for the accuracy of his research (see 1990s La Manovella about his 2-volumes "Alfa Romeo di produzione and his invention of a "forgotten" Alfa which was, in the end, an old Darracq design updated), but you seem quite selective in your reading.

I must correct you about "Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography)".



And, if it's not specific enough:


While Collins' and McDonough's book on 33s is at least as much packed with errors as Tabucchi's, they remark on page 18:


I reckon that further in the book, they make confusing statements about the engine's origin, and BTW report having seen "castings for a 2-litre V8 produced during the 1950s, again for a stillborn passenger/GT car".

I have myself researched the Arese archives for an history of the Alfa factory in the 40s and 50s, and didn't came across any plan for such a car. That doesn't rule out that the castings do exist, but I'm in doubt which project they can have been related to.
I am sorry if my comments sounds like papal edicts to you. It is due to my modest English, not my intention. However, I have to admit that our points of view (and sources) are profoundly different.
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post #52 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Hi Gabor,
Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities.
Interesting, but as far as I know very little of the internals of th ATS 100 engine, I can say very little about the similarities except they both are twin cam V8s.

The tipo 33.2 engine I would rather say has a gear drive of the cams as only the first leg of the cam drive system is with chain, the rest is with gears up to the cams. This is completely different from the Montreal cam drive which is with chains all the way.
Can you confirm that the ATS engine has the same gear drive arrangement as the Tipo 33.2 ? Actually I have only seen this arrangement on the Alfa Tipo 33.2, but have there been others?

G.
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post #53 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-05-2015, 10:21 PM
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It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
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post #54 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-06-2015, 12:06 AM
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It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
Pete
I agree!
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post #55 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-06-2015, 08:34 AM
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Garage
Some of this thread brings to mind the picture of John Nash's garage in "A beautiful mind"

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Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


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post #56 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-14-2016, 03:01 PM
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Regarding the origins of the engine this debate was made before in other threads I seem to recall but gtv2000 expressed the same feelings I had since I have both the book "Nel cuore dell' Alfa" by Busso which quite clearly states how Busso was unhappy that Chiti was given the engine when Busso's team had projected it. Indeed in the same book Busso explains how he researched the magnesium castings for the chassis from France subsequently made there and used on the race car. So much of the initial projection of the tipo 33 race car was in my opinion done in house headed by Busso/Satta. When Autodelta took ownership of the project surely Chiti could have developed and changed the engine according to best principles (learned from previous experience) but the skeletal framework of the engine was not his nor part of an earlier engine in my opinion.
One has to also consider when designing the new race engines there will in my humble opinion always be parts/sections that remind one of other previous engines, especially in this case other Italian engines so new engines could use a similar (but improved) evolutionary layout unless the design is completely revolutionary.
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post #57 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 02:38 PM
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33 engine

Well, this is not cerainly the proof, but...
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post #58 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-25-2016, 11:59 PM
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You can see why they needed twin plugs to get everything out of them. Look at those piston tops !! Combustion chamber cut in half..

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post #59 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2016, 01:14 PM
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Just received my copy of Autocar of 10th September 1970 in which the Alfa Romeo tipo 33 history is told in detail until this date and the article by Ray Hutton clearly states "...though Chiti is himself an engine designer, the 90 degree v8 four camshaft power unit was the work of Orazio Satta Puliga , "father" of the Giulietta and now the chief of the Alfa Romeo experimental department, and Giuseppe Busso. Other aspects of the cars design cannot be attributed fairly to any one person, having been jointly developed by Autodelta and Alfa Romeo's experimental department.." to which I can add that the magnesium castings were an idea of Busso.
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post #60 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2016, 02:07 PM
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Blimey, I'd make a complaint about the late delivery. Just kidding..

That settles a great deal for this long thread.

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