Tipo 33 Engine - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-19-2015, 04:45 AM
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With regard to the pictures/comment in post #30.

I cannot relate the first foto to a tipo 33 engine, though it may be a prototype or something else, perhaps Montreal? All original correct tipo 33 engines I`ve seen are fuel injected for a start, there are many other differences.

The second foto, purportedly of a Stradale, to my eyes is a correct twin plug, 4 coil, twin Bosch distributor engine - all clearly visible - certainly not a single plug!!

Richard

Last edited by richards; 08-19-2015 at 04:47 AM. Reason: spelling!
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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-19-2015, 05:03 AM Thread Starter
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thank you Richard.
You conforms my impression, that all 33 should have injection. Lucas on the first ones.
The first picture is referred to be of the Floron Spider. As you stated it looks like a Montreal engine.
The second is from the replica, and as you have observed it is with two plugs.
I put them in because I could not understand . Whey it suddenly, seems I question whether 33 was with single or twin plugs.
To my knowledge was all 33/2 with twin plugs.
Can you confirm that???
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-19-2015, 04:27 PM
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The single plug engine I have seen only on the Sport prototypes, not on the Stradale, or have I missed a photo here?

Also the Fusi book says the Stradale engine is a twin plug engine. So good reason to believe it is.

Is there a Stradale engine(which is twin plug) wich has a single distributor and two coils?

About strange engines in these cars, I saw the Carabo(Tipo 33 prototype) with a surprising Montreal engine in it and nobody at that time could explain where the original engine was. So strange things happened that time!

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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-19-2015, 07:22 PM
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Early photo from ATS. No facts on engine. Wonder if this was the Busso V8 or prototype of his as from having carbs on it. Anyone have an idea. Carburetors would have been on first prototypes surely.....

Found it...... early 2500 GT chassis and engine..
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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-20-2015, 12:25 AM
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ATS cylinder head are nothing like the T33 engine ... hmmm, I think the so called similarities are a myth ...
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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-20-2015, 01:22 AM
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A huge photo collection here many inside Autodelta. In one photo of magazine article clipping. Shows first photo of production 33 Stradale sent out to new owner !!
Describes it having Weber Carbs and single ignition. With transistor ignition in testing still..

https://www.facebook.com/alfaromeot3...=photos_stream

..
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-20-2015, 05:02 AM
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I had never seen that document before, but the main picture looks very much like a photomontage based on a TZ2 picture.

Also it seems more probable that the 1600cc engine referred to is the actual TZ2 4-cyl that was fitted to the prototype before the V8 was ready, with boreXstroke calculated for fitting a partial info quoting the 1600cc.

Here the well known picture of the day in January 1966 when the car is handed over to Chiti at Balocco. That Busso is not pleased is to be seen on his face. Sanesi at the wheel, Chiti in the cabin. The car doesn't look like the "picture" here above.



On a more general point, it is clear from many Alfa sources that both 33 chassis and engine were designed by Busso's team, starting BEFORE Autodelta was created and commissioned to assemble TZs, and handed over from bitter Busso to Chiti in January 1966. I seem to remember that in his memories, Busso quotes the date of the first run of the V8 on the bench at Portello. Afterwards, of course, Chiti developped the car and the engine.

I have seen McDonough/Collins book quoted above. Unfortunately, there are many errors in that book that was written hastily due to edition deadlines, so unfortunately it's not as relaible as one may wish. For evidence, justc check the amount of misplaced and miscaptioned pictures: almost every season chapter starts with test pictures actually showing another year's car...

I have researched the Alfa archives with some focus on the 40s and 50s, and while having discovered quite many unknwon facts and projects, I have seen no trace of a mid-50s V8, nor is it quoted in Busso's or other's memories.

That being said, it's still an interesting book deserving it's place in any Alfist's library.
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 03:23 AM
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To add just a little more confusion; the T33 Fleron that Joe Nastase had here in 2013 had SINGLE plug heads. Definitely 33 heads, not Montreal. I have had dismantled Montreal and 2-valve 33 engine parts side by side to compare the evolution. BTW, the 4-cylinder "testa-stretta" narrow heads are also an evolution of the 33 2-valve.
Joe said that early on there were both types of head, but twin plug versions were probably 90% of all the early 2-valve 33 heads.
Many uncommon things were obviously tried in small numbers, so nothing is absolute as with many things Alfa/Autodelta. Now how many of you know about the use of titanium crankshafts in 33 engines......?
Note to Alistair: that printed article is interesting, but photo is a Fleron not Stradale.
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 06:20 AM
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Hi vince

A little OT but is that, earlier foto, definitely a Fleron? No verification to hand and it looks prettier than `Flerons` I remember!

Richard
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 07:07 AM
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This guy GIORGIO LANGELLA worked on the 33's up to 1968 as an electrician and mechanic at Autodelta. Then went back to Alfa. We should hunt him down and pick his brains.... wonder if he speaks any english..

Giorgio Langella: Heart of An Alfista | Petrolicious

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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 08-27-2015, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
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Hi vince

A little OT but is that, earlier foto, definitely a Fleron? No verification to hand and it looks prettier than `Flerons` I remember!

Richard
Hi Richard,
My point is, it is a competition type 33, of the "Fleron" style if you like, NOT remotely a Stradale. I agree, it looks more striking than regular Fleron appearance. As already pointed out in an earlier thread, it does look like a composite of TZ2 and Fleron. Probably most likely one of the very early muletto test cars I would think. Chances are, they used a modified TZ2 front bodywork for initial testing before making a more bespoke 33 version.
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 09:41 AM
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33 engine

The paternity of 33 2 liters engine:
“…However, what he really wanted was a radical change, and his lightweight alloy V8 was secret weapon to prove. With two chain driven overhead camshafts per cylinder bank, two/four ignition coils, Lucas fuel injection, 16 spark plugs (two per cylinder, though the early version was equipped with single plug, “Periscopica” 001, 002, and 003), compression 11:1, and capacity of just under two liters (1995cc), engine easily developed 270 bhp in race trim. The engine coupled to a six-speed direct Colotti gearbox. Recently someone stated that the project of that engine was of Busso, but this is not true. The fact is that Busso and Satta have proposed V12 as definite engine, and only the necessity to reduce the bulk and the weight of power unit, and eventual use in future production of that motor, conducted to the V8 solution. However, the project of the engine was not quite new. Chiti just reviewed existing plans of his 1500 engine, based on experience gained at Ferrari. He has designed similar engine few years before for ATS F1, and it was 90°, V8, single plug, with 45° inclined OHC valves, aluminum block with wet liners, dry sump flat alloy crank, with five main bearings. Increasing it to 2 liter and adding twin spark ignition and fuel injection, was not a problem, and the truth is that initially many used parts were of ATS provenience. The final result was nice and clean construction and to assure enough air, on the racing car, a huge pipe was mounted over the engine bay…”
“The Fléron chassis”
“Il motore è stato “revisionato” nel corso del 1966. Il V8 non nacque in casa Alfa, ma fu portato "in dote” dall'ingegner Carlo Chiti dopo la sua avventura all'ATS…”
“Alfa Romeo 33/2 Stradale”
“El motor, un desarrollo de Carlo Chiti heredado de su fallido intento en ATS, era un V8 a 90° de aluminio con doble arbol de levas en cabeza de 1995 cc, culata de doble encendido e inyeccion de combustible mecanica SPICA, que entrega entre 230 y 243 CV a 8800 rpm, con un par de 200 Nm a 7000 rpm., aunque hay quien le ha hecho pasar la barrera de los 250 CV y 9000 rpm.”
“T33 Stradale”
Ignition coils and number of plugs:
On 33 engine, two or four coils were used indistinctly. (Four for major reliability) and the number of plugs was 8 on early, “Periscopica” models (two coils) as clearly visible on the photo of 750.33.003 (now in Nastase collection, USA). All “Stradale” cars were equipped with 16 plugs (twin spark), some with two, and some with four ignition coils, (irrespective of Marelli or Bosh distribution), and SPICA injection.
In the late ’50, V8 engines were tested in Servizio Esperienze (elaboration of previously existing projects made by Busso), but that was another engine not related to 33 project, and abandoned before 105.33
Carrozzeria Marazzi held all the documents pertinent to 33 Stradale (the chassis were delivered to Marazzi completed with drivetrain) and you can ask for details, though I do not know if their database is open to public. (Adress to Mario or Serafino Marazzi at [email protected])
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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 04:52 PM
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Interesting debate on who made the first series of Tipo 33 engine and its up to history researchers to find out for sure. Books some times tell diffent stories. In the Carlo Chiti Grand Prix book its only mentioned that he constructed a new car and V8 engine. So what he took with him of ideas for the new V8 engine maybe was only in his mind. Also its mentioned elswhere that the ATS V8 engine was a copy of the Ferrari V6 F1 engine, with regards of technical details. So copying over several generations of engines?

ATS being a very obscure brand from Italy in the sixties, and this site being an Alfa site, therefore knowledge of ATS here probably is close to zero. In the Chiti Grand Prix book there is only photo of the road 2,5L engine which is a single cam V8. So getting anything on the F1 1,5L twin cam V8 was not quite easy. However there is some material on this engine in a book. Just to get an idea to the discussion here and even get a photo of it. On the retrieved photos it can be seen that the 1963 version was quite different from the Tipo33 engine, however the 1964 ATS engine looks more like the Alfa. This actually means nothing with regards of the Alfa ancestry, but maybe there is a chance? How close are these constructions?

The retrieved texts and photos from 1,5L F1 engines of the sixties: p. 288-289

G.

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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-03-2015, 05:25 PM
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This reminded me of an old thread to which I contributed, which revealed a photo of a Colotti-Francis transaxle. Wonder what happened to it ....

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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-04-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Interesting debate on who made the first series of Tipo 33 engine and its up to history researchers to find out for sure. Books some times tell diffent stories. In the Carlo Chiti Grand Prix book its only mentioned that he constructed a new car and V8 engine. So what he took with him of ideas for the new V8 engine maybe was only in his mind. Also its mentioned elswhere that the ATS V8 engine was a copy of the Ferrari V6 F1 engine, with regards of technical details. So copying over several generations of engines?

ATS being a very obscure brand from Italy in the sixties, and this site being an Alfa site, therefore knowledge of ATS here probably is close to zero. In the Chiti Grand Prix book there is only photo of the road 2,5L engine which is a single cam V8. So getting anything on the F1 1,5L twin cam V8 was not quite easy. However there is some material on this engine in a book. Just to get an idea to the discussion here and even get a photo of it. On the retrieved photos it can be seen that the 1963 version was quite different from the Tipo33 engine, however the 1964 ATS engine looks more like the Alfa. This actually means nothing with regards of the Alfa ancestry, but maybe there is a chance? How close are these constructions?

The retrieved texts and photos from 1,5L F1 engines of the sixties: p. 288-289

G.

https://books.google.no/books?id=pf-...engine&f=false
If you are interested in ATS, than Michael John Lazzari book, “ATS. La scuderia bolognese che sfidò Ferrari”, (Maglio Editore, 2012) is good starting point (I do not know if there is English edition too). ATS 2,5 liter engine has nothing to do with 33 project and it was not Formula 1 engine. It was produced for ATS GT 2,5 and it is another story, not for this forum. Ferrari V6 engine used in F1 was 120° and different architecture, and so, obviously not the inspiration for 90° V8. Chiti at Ferrari has worked on 158 F1 engine project in 1960 (later developed by Forghieri) used in 1964 F1 season. It was 1500 cc,V8, 90°, 2 OHC two valves for bank, 5 bearings, dry sump, ecc, very similar to his 1500 cc,T100 ATS F1 engine built in 1962, and both those motors are close relatives to 33 engine. I do not understand continuous claiming of Giuseppe Busso’s authorship of 33 motor (chassis and the majority of general solutions were his work) as Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography) V8 for 33 as his project. Maurizio Tabucchi author of important books about Alfa Romeo (close friend of Chiti) is explicit about that: “…Luraghi’s decision was immediate; Chiti would complete 33 project, and Chiti would conceive the new engine for it, an 2 liter V8 unit…”
“…La decisione di Luraghi fu immediata: la 33 l'avrebbe terminata Chiti e avrebbe progettato anche il motore, un 8 cilindri da due litri…“ (Maurizio Tabucchi, “AUTODELTA”,1967, GLI ESORDI DELLA 33, page 80) Another controversy is about produced Stradale cars.
Here are numbers:
750.33.01 (four lights, prototypo, body probably in aluminum) Autodelta factory
750.33.101 (two lights, first production car, body in Peraluman H33) Carrozzeria Marazzi
750.33.102 same as above
750.33.103 same as above
750.33.104 same as above
750.33.105 same as above
750.33.106 same as above
750.33.107 magnesium chassis, fiberglass body, 270 bhp engine, used for racing
750.33.108 Concept car (Pininfarina Roadster, rebodied in Cuneo)
750.33.109 Concept car (Bertone Carabo)
750.33.110 ?
750.33.111 same as first production car
750.33.112 same as above
750.33.113 same as above, renumbered in 750.33.133
750.33.114 2,5 liter engine, racing trim (Giro d’Italia)
750.33.115 Concept car (Pininfarina 33/2 SC)
750.33.116 Concept car (Giugiaro Iguana)
750.33.117 Concept car (Bertone Navajo)
750.33.118 ?
To replace sold prototype (750.33.01) sold in Japan, Autodelta build on magnesium chassis from dismantled racing car (number 750.33.012) four light version renumbered in 105.33.12
Though I did accurate inquiry (as possible), I cannot guarantee absolute correctness of chassis number data.

Last edited by ARGTAReg; 11-04-2015 at 02:18 PM. Reason: error in typing
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