TZ1 Le Mans #750003 1964 - Page 7 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #91 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
Not the same car as for several features to be observed
I have to agree with an earlier post where this forum has too many 1/2 comments innuendos and cryptic messages.

My Dad always advised me to "...speak straight, with a clear intent...". So, I encourage GTV2000 and others to please enlighten us with their knowledge or stop making posts that promise a lot and say nothing! It is confusing.
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post #92 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by benmou View Post
I m the one who found the car in Italy
Welcome back, Mr. "O" ???

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #93 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 12:23 AM
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Welcome back, Mr. "O" ???
If you have seen the TZ book, you will see me with 003 when I discover the car, Olczyk was generous with me when I give him the info, then my full respect to him.
I have a other TZ that I restore
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post #94 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-14-2015, 03:01 AM
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Reasons for not "speaking straight, with a clear intent"

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Originally Posted by sinkman1 View Post
I have to agree with an earlier post where this forum has too many 1/2 comments innuendos and cryptic messages.

My Dad always advised me to "...speak straight, with a clear intent...". So, I encourage GTV2000 and others to please enlighten us with their knowledge or stop making posts that promise a lot and say nothing! It is confusing.
Dear Phil,

Let me speak for myself. I prefer to say that I have questions about specific cars, mentioned on the alfabb and on other forums. These questions can originate from gaps or inconsistencies in the history of a specific car, questions about the origin, questions about certain aspects of the car in its present condition, etc.

In general; these questions can be solved if everybody supplies whatever information is available on a specific car. John de Boer already wrote a fine balanced piece about that in another thread on #750003. In some cases, these questions are solved. Take for example the history of a TZ owned by Richard Stafferton in the eighties. Have a look at http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limi...le-canada.html

That isn't always the case, because sometimes the information is not available anymore or never has been available in the first place.
In other instances, not everybody is authorized or willing to supply the information needed.
Not authorized because information is known to someone without the supplier of the information allowing them to speak out freely for what ever reason. That sounds strange but it happens, also to me.
Not willing because the information will harm the value of a car that can be in the hundred thousands (for a TZ) or millions (for some Alfa's) of US Dollars/Euro's/Pounds. In that case "speaking straight, with a clear intent" can get you into serious trouble.

With TZ's, "trouble" started when prices were going up and were enhanced when Marcello Minerbi published the list of chassisnumbers in his book "Alfa Romeo - Zagato SZ TZ" by the publisher "La Mille Miglia Editrice" in 1985. Since then, chassisnumbers with "no news" in that list have turned up because (parts of) the original car were/was found or a facsimile was made (have a look at http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa...cing-cars.html). Of some chassisnumbers like # 750087, more than three examples are known today.
You can imagine that questions about a certain example of a certain chassisnumber will be asked for many reasons, one of them being buying or selling the car.

You have been very open regarding the information on and the origins of your car. I appreciate that very much. "...speak straight, with a clear intent..." is what you did. Thanks for that.


Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 02-14-2015 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Additional info
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post #95 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-14-2015, 03:36 AM
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Definition of "original" and other classifications.

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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
I would rather not comment on the "original", but indeed the featured car here does not fit the "peculiarities" of the car shown on page 1 in this thread, neither front nor rear.
Dear members,

Maybe this will help.

Here is the complete text of what Denis wrote in his book.
Source: ‘Directory of historic racing cars’ written by Denis Jenkinson and published by Aston Publications Ltd. in 1987. From the 'Glossary of terms' I Quote:


‘Original’:

Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have had to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The ‘old-car industry’ frequently uses degrees of originality, such as ‘nearly original’, ‘almost original’, even ‘completely original’, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres or a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer ‘original’. Many components have remained ‘original’, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to ‘original drawings’ and ‘original material specification’, but this does not make them ‘original’ parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as ‘original’, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a ‘reproduction’ or ‘facsimile’.

‘Genuine’:

This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they ‘disappeared’ into ‘limbo’ or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.’s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has it’s basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as ‘Romulus’ is not ‘original’, as it has been repainted, re-upholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; it is unquestionably ‘Genuine’.

‘Authentic’:

This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own , but has never disappaered from view. The ‘entity’, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new body-work, instrument panel , seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The ‘entity’ that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as ‘Authentic’. There is no question of it being ‘Original’, and to describe it as ‘Genuine’ would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

‘Resurrection’:

Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases were such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassisframe and new body were required and, from the bare bones or the ashes of the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a ‘Resurrection’ from the dead, or from the graveyeard.

‘Re-construction’:

This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but ususally there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built , its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

‘Facsimile’:

Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there was never an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and here are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a ‘Replica’ of the four genuine cars, but such a situation is unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile , from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from originals (genuine or authentic cars, Olaf). Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

‘Duplication’:

This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as ‘a basket case’ and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as ‘a box of bits’.The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand componentsto replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there had only been one. Naturally each owner claims ‘authenticity’ for his completed car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its members – strongly disapprove of this practise.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.

‘Special’:

This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be sufficiently finished to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off. The nice thing about specials is that they are a law into themselves and do not need to be put into any sort or category. A special can be totally accepted as ‘Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile’.

‘Converted’:

There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then into a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. tha started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come, but it can never revert back to R4B.

‘Destroyed’:

A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

‘Scrapped’:

This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap an used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, then that car has gone forever, and the nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

‘Broken up’:

Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

That completes what Denis Jenkinson said.

Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 02-14-2015 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Spelling
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post #96 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-14-2015, 08:53 AM
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Olaf,
I like Denis Jenkinson's descriptions and they can be used for any vehicle. I am glad that modern cars have vehicle identification numbers, but racing cars are different problem. I guess that a buyer has to be aware of these practices.
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post #97 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-14-2015, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Zagato_Olaf View Post
Dear Phil,

Let me speak for myself. I prefer to say that I have questions about specific cars, mentioned on the alfabb and on other forums. These questions can originate from gaps or inconsistencies in the history of a specific car, questions about the origin, questions about certain aspects of the car in its present condition, etc.

In general; these questions can be solved if everybody supplies whatever information is available on a specific car. John de Boer already wrote a fine balanced piece about that in another thread on #750003. In some cases, these questions are solved. Take for example the history of a TZ owned by Richard Stafferton in the eighties. Have a look at http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limi...le-canada.html

That isn't always the case, because sometimes the information is not available anymore or never has been available in the first place.
In other instances, not everybody is authorized or willing to supply the information needed.
Not authorized because information is known to someone without the supplier of the information allowing them to speak out freely for what ever reason. That sounds strange but it happens, also to me.
Not willing because the information will harm the value of a car that can be in the hundred thousands (for a TZ) or millions (for some Alfa's) of US Dollars/Euro's/Pounds. In that case "speaking straight, with a clear intent" can get you into serious trouble.

With TZ's, "trouble" started when prices were going up and were enhanced when Marcello Minerbi published the list of chassisnumbers in his book "Alfa Romeo - Zagato SZ TZ" by the publisher "La Mille Miglia Editrice" in 1985. Since then, chassisnumbers with "no news" in that list have turned up because (parts of) the original car were/was found or a facsimile was made (have a look at http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa...cing-cars.html). Of some chassisnumbers like # 750087, more than three examples are known today.
You can imagine that questions about a certain example of a certain chassisnumber will be asked for many reasons, one of them being buying or selling the car.

You have been very open regarding the information on and the origins of your car. I appreciate that very much. "...speak straight, with a clear intent..." is what you did. Thanks for that.


Ciao, Olaf
Good post but Minerbi book Is empty, no reg plates, no photos, no history, thé only valable book Is Mr O book and all collectors of réal cars agrée With me. I believe it s Time to recognise thé truth as when you deny it, you loose your crédibility.
I have others photos of 003 if you like them.
Never Forget that thé car Was a prototype and that it Was modified by thé FACTORY for rallying With larger front suspensions. AT this Time, nobody didnt notice it, as nobody knew.
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post #98 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-16-2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benmou View Post
Good post but Minerbi book Is empty, no reg plates, no photos, no history, thé only valable book Is Mr O book and all collectors of réal cars agrée With me. I believe it s Time to recognise thé truth as when you deny it, you loose your crédibility.
I have others photos of 003 if you like them.
Never Forget that thé car Was a prototype and that it Was modified by thé FACTORY for rallying With larger front suspensions. AT this Time, nobody didnt notice it, as nobody knew.
Dear Benmou,

Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion.

May I point out one of the errors in Mr.O's book, concerning chassisnumber #750084? We have established on the Nostalgia Forum and here that the red car with the high roof is the chassisnumber #750084 with the continious history. The silver car mentioned and pictured in Mr. O's book is not the red car. Simply look at the roof and you will see for yourself. The red #7500084 car was auctioned in 2006 by MMC. The silver car was in Spain the last time I had contact with people who know that car.

Have a look at these post on the Nostalgia Forum and here on the Alfa Bulletin Board:
Alfa TZ2 '750109' - TNF's Archive - The AUTOSPORT Forums
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limi...tml#post830360

Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 02-16-2015 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Additional info
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post #99 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 05:14 AM
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lol...
You should speak with Mr O, not me
And I m sure he will answer to you, now if you try to convince me that Mr O is not God, I known.
You may think that he need to be 100 % correct in every subject ? And he cannot make a error may be ?
Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion. And all owners of REAL CAR believe that his Alfa TZ book is the best one.
I own a TZ, do you ?

Did you see the Silver car yourself ? Any photos to share ?
How do you known that it s a mistake ?
Are you a Alfa expert recognized by the factory ?
With 117 cars, is it acceptable that the book contains an error or two? Mr O must be regarded as the son of God who is always right?
I 've realized that you have a dispute with Mr O.
The absent are always wrong .... it's so easy
Are you afraid of a confrontation with him that you refuse him the right to reply

Last edited by benmou; 02-17-2015 at 08:02 AM.
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post #100 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 10:56 AM
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Okay, enough.
As a moderator here on the AlfaBB, I am asking you folks to stop being so confrontational and stick to discussing TZ's.
This thread is NOT about defending "Mr O", or pointing out his possible mistakes in his book.
"Mr O" is not here to 'defend' himself, because he violated forum rules, and threatened many BB members.
Do not be in danger of getting your post deleted, or you yourself put on notice for breaking forum rules.
Please play nice.

The " Save the Rusty Alfa Society"
43 Alfas at the moment [ I think], I'll be able to tell better when the snow melts
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post #101 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-17-2015, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyMetalAlfa View Post
Okay, enough.
As a moderator here on the AlfaBB, I am asking you folks to stop being so confrontational and stick to discussing TZ's.
This thread is NOT about defending "Mr O", or pointing out his possible mistakes in his book.
"Mr O" is not here to 'defend' himself, because he violated forum rules, and threatened many BB members.
Do not be in danger of getting your post deleted, or you yourself put on notice for breaking forum rules.
Please play nice.
Hello HeavyMetalAlfa,

Message understood. I will make no more comments.
Let the facts speak for themselves.
This is me pushing chassisnumber #750020 to its display location in the eighties.

Ciao, Olaf
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Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 02-17-2015 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Additional info
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post #102 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 04:20 AM
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Here 075 when it was found out.
Photo was taken by the mecanic in Belgium
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post #103 of 104 (permalink) Old 02-18-2015, 05:27 AM
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My car under restoration
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post #104 of 104 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 06:08 AM
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shogo from japan for sale daytona

mail to me thank you
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