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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-25-2009, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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TZ for sale

It looks real, but so do numerous fakes. Experts I'm sure will weigh in: TZ on e*Bay

- Michael

Last edited by mls64; 07-25-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-26-2009, 12:03 PM
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As I posted on the for sale thread a couple days ago:

No seriously this is a rare car. There are only three in the world (with that chassis number). The following are ads for the other two.

Chassis No. AR750057
VDV-Grant


Chassis No. AR750057 (popular number)
Cars from ANTEA cars

Good luck! George
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-26-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George J View Post
As I posted on the for sale thread a couple days ago:

No seriously this is a rare car. There are only three in the world (with that chassis number). The following are ads for the other two.

Chassis No. AR750057
VDV-Grant


Chassis No. AR750057 (popular number)
Cars from ANTEA cars

Good luck! George
Isn't there TWO S/N 750057s, and isn't one of them the one Bruce Trenery of Fantasy Junction returned to Olczyk after finding out it was a fake?


BTW: VDV Grant (Paul Grant) is a GOOD FRIEND of Olczyk...


This car from Japan MIGHT be the real one, but I would be VERY careful...

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-26-2009, 01:35 PM
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Seems like history is repeating itself

Hello members,

Great to see AR 750057 for sale again! We had a discussion about this chassisnumber earlier. Indeed at least two cars with this number were for sale at the same time in the past in Belgium and Japan. Have a look at that thread and enjoy.

Ciao! Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-26-2009, 02:53 PM
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Real or not, the eBay listing now says the chassis number is "11511AR7500XX" and that the seller is aware of the Belgian 057.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-27-2009, 12:25 AM
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There are only two cars with this VIN.
This is the Japanese car which was for sale via Antea.com 2004/2005 and since 2007 again. It has old Italian papers and is documented since 1984.
The other car came in about 1995 from Italy and travelled via France to Belgium, of course. It has no documentation and a wrong French 1960s SOFAR (the French importer) plate. According to sources the 1995 French buyer tried to prepare it for racing, but he was not able to repair the chassis in a proper way, because one side was shorter than the other.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-27-2009, 07:12 AM
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This is the link

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinue View Post
There are only two cars with this VIN.
This is the Japanese car which was for sale via Antea.com 2004/2005 and since 2007 again. It has old Italian papers and is documented since 1984.
The other car came in about 1995 from Italy and travelled via France to Belgium, of course. It has no documentation and a wrong French 1960s SOFAR (the French importer) plate. According to sources the 1995 French buyer tried to prepare it for racing, but he was not able to repair the chassis in a proper way, because one side was shorter than the other.
Here is the link for those who want to have a look at the original thread on chassisnumber 750057. http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limi...times-2-a.html

Ciao, Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 12:07 AM
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I guess given the concerns about its provenance, $350K is possibly a sticking point. The last time I looked there were no bidders. You would have thought that there should be a way of resolving which one is the original and perhaps the other not, or is it one of those situations where there are parts in both cars which come from say the original car and so hence clearly not so simple to make the distinction.

Glad I am not in the market for this one.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 03:54 AM
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Resolving which one is the original

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Originally Posted by Super1600 View Post
I guess given the concerns about its provenance, $350K is possibly a sticking point. The last time I looked there were no bidders. You would have thought that there should be a way of resolving which one is the original and perhaps the other not, or is it one of those situations where there are parts in both cars which come from say the original car and so hence clearly not so simple to make the distinction.

Glad I am not in the market for this one.
Hello Super1600,

If you click the link referred to earlier in this thread, you will get an idea about the authenticity of the cars and any controversy concerning their origin.

Ciao! Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 04:24 PM
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Hi Olaf, Many thanks for the reference to the link, and ah yes I kind of thought it might involve a certain Belgian. Oh happy days. It most certainly was a very interesting if not frustrating read as it kind of never answered the questions over authenticity, but I guess in a way perhaps it is not surprising given the nature of the TZ and the hard life many of these cars lead, let alone the replica market, and the $ values involved. Possibly a classic case of never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

I guess the one question that remains and based on your extensive experience/knowledge of such cars is that perhaps the Japanese one may in fact be the real one ? If so, then perhaps the price is reasonable, but maybe in such uncertain economic times not the easiest car to sell, and especially on e-bay. Cheers Dave

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-02-2009, 03:56 AM
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#750057 and TZ knowledge

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Originally Posted by Super1600 View Post
I guess the one question that remains and based on your extensive experience/knowledge of such cars is that perhaps the Japanese one may in fact be the real one ? If so, then perhaps the price is reasonable, but maybe in such uncertain economic times not the easiest car to sell, and especially on e-bay. Cheers Dave
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the compliment concerning my knowlegde on the TZ cars. To much honour though!

There are people on and outside the alfabb with a lot more knowledge than I have. My experience comes from books and documents on TZ's and a limited number of TZ-1's and TZ-2's that I have seen in real life. There are Alfista on the Bulletin Board that have seen dozens of these cars, have driven, owned or even raced them and/or made a real study of their history. I try to do my share. Piecing together information with other knowledgable members here on the bulletin board is great and learns me a lot. And it's fun!

Concerning the two #750057 chassis. Reading the original thread you can see how difficult it is to judge these cars from a distance. And you can also see there are some give-aways as to the originality of a car. In my opinion, the fact that two TZ-1's with this chassisnumber show up, will put a lot of people off. It will make selling the car more difficult. But then again, experts who have seen both cars and their documents might not have difficulty deciding which is what and buy one of the two cars. Personally, I don't think that e-bay is the place to be for these kind of cars. But then again, you will get worldwide coverage for your car on e-bay!

By the way, this is me pushing the TZ-1 #750020 owned by Anthony Mak van Waay that we were able to borrow together with a red JZ for a show in Hilversum in Holland (I think it was the "Droomauto" in 1988). Our display was that years effort for the promotion for the Dutch Alfa Romeo Owners Club (SCARB). At this years Spettacolo Sportivo of our club, Zagato is the featured marque. The 29th and 30th of August on the Zandvoort Circuit in Holland. Lot's of SZ-RZ, JZ, TZ and others. Have a look at Spettacolo Sportivo Alfa Romeo 2009 - 29 & 30 Augustus - Circuitpark Zandvoort (also in the english language).

Ciao, Olaf
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Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 08-02-2009 at 04:13 AM. Reason: more info
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-03-2009, 12:22 AM
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Hello Olaf, I enjoyed the picture of the TZ that you were pushing. What a magnificant Alfa !! I so agree that in the sharing of knowledge so many more are informed and this is one of the really powerful things the BB can do. If I give you too much credit for your knowledge, well thats ok for if I know one thing, you certainly know a lot more than I do .

I am not sure (no suspect I havn't) I ever seen a TZ, let alone know of anyone with one. The best I have seen was a SZ in action some years ago while overseas, in the UK, when I went to the Goodwood historics races (not the Festival of Speed).

But I so agree that in trying to research facts and find out the truth indeed this fun. A bit like archaelogy. I also agree very much with you, that Ebay isn't possibly the best place to try to sell the car like the one in Japan. I would have thought via auction (major auction house) but with appropriate disclaimers re the possible problems re the chassis no might be a better option. Oh well, I guess not our car to have to worry about.

Thanks also for the links, I will check them out and enjoy. Cheers Dave

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-07-2009, 09:27 PM
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The car Fantasy Junction has was 007; not 057...and Bruce sold it to Olczyk AS A FAKE. Olczyk did not represent it as such. There are TWO cars with S/N 007...the real one and this one...
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-08-2009, 07:56 AM
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Changing the subject witin a thread

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Originally Posted by Ritmo100S View Post
The car Fantasy Junction has was 007; not 057...and Bruce sold it to Olczyk AS A FAKE. Olczyk did not represent it as such. There are TWO cars with S/N 007...the real one and this one...
Hello Ritmo100S,

In this hread we are talking about the TZ-1_750057 cars, one in Japan (Antea.com) and one in Belgium. As far as I know, the TZ-1_750007 and USA (Fantasy Junction) weren't mentioned. Was there a mix up somewhere in this thread?

There could be interesting information in what you say. I suggest you check the previous threads concerning TZ-1_750007 and Fantasy Junction and start a new thread concerning the history of the car, it's whereabouts and new information that you would like to share. That way, information about specific cars/chassisnumbers is easier to find in case of future research and reference. Do you have pictures and specific info on the two TZ-1_750007. Let's hear it!

Ciao! Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 08-08-2009 at 07:58 AM. Reason: additional info
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 02:22 PM
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Another sad case in TZ country...

Although I haven't inspected either car, the Japanese car (there are indeed "only"2 # 057's... Antea from Japan is also the one who put it on Ebay) seems to have the best cards to come out on top...

It has "vintage" Italian registration papers (but those are relatively easy to get...) but more importantly, it has been documented to have been in Japan since the spring of 1984 but that is also no guarantee of course.

The Belgian car dropped out of the sky in 1995 (as MartinUe correctly mentions) and has a couple of suspect details such as, again as MartinUe mentions, the "wrong" French importers plate which is standard MO for fake TZ's of a certain origin...

For me, but only for me... the Japanse car is most probably the original # 057 but is difficult to sell since there is another # 057 on the market... but nowadays I wouldn't dare to buy an "original" TZ anymore...

Would anybody know of a good and low cost replica with FIA papers so that it can be raced? Lets say around 80K U$? It will never be passed off as an original.


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