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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-11-2018, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Worblaufen Pescara 6C2300

Hi, iicarJohn, looking to the old photos, I found some from 2004 with Worblaufen 6C2300 Pescara, that was part of the collection of Gianluigi Boccia. I have some data that indicate chassis number as 814064 and engine 823139. The car was imported from Switzerland, and plate in that period was renewed in Roma 0H3584. Knowing your absolute arbitrage in that specific matter, I would like to know if my data about chassis and engine numbers are correct.
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-23-2018, 07:36 AM
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814064

Hello ARGTAReg,

Thank you! I am not any sort of arbiter, I'm afraid. I merely collect data and attempt to make sense of it.

Your information agrees with what has been reported in the past.
I saw this car in Switzerland during 2015 but was not allowed to take any photos.

All my best, John
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-23-2018, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi John,
The car is not part of Gian Luigi Boccia collection anymore. He was dear friend, but after his premature death I have lost the story of 6C 2300. Trough the years there were strange attempts to verify engine and chassis numbers, that I have answered without doubts, using always numbers left on fiches for “Una corsa per la vita” race in 1996 (that we did together). Suddenly, few months ago, there was statement that numbers were not the correct ones, and that is why I asked for your help. Your registry is by far the best list of true and useful data existing today, and you are not a simple data collector for sure.
Thank you for help
Palè
P.S. I have numerous photos from the race and if they could be useful for you in any way, I will send them to your private mail. Just indicate it to me.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-23-2018, 03:40 PM
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814064

I saw "814064" precisely two years ago (tomorrow, my time) when it was with Koni Lutziger. I was taken to visit by a Swiss friend who had cancer and died less than a year later. There were several cars of interest to my studies but I learned very little during that visit. I was asked to take no detail photos and elected to take no photos at all and very few notes notes so as to avoid breaking any rules. I wrote a few things down from memory after my visit and cannot claim 100% accuracy to those notes.

So, now a probable correction to my earlier response which was based only on my looking at the record of 814064 information collected to date. I looked at my files again and found that the Roma plate "0H3584" leads to chassis 813910 which was fitted originally with engine 823904. I saw it two years ago with Koni Lutziger as well … fitted with engine 823553. A friend researched the Roma plate some years ago and the owner of 813910 was recorded as "Gianluigi Boccia".

I can also say that an original version of 814064 would have been unlikely to have been characterized originally as "Pescara" as the early 814xxx cars were supposed to be "Turismo" or "Turismo Lungo" examples.

Now, my question would be, "Did Gianluigi Boccia own two different cars bodied by Worblaufen … both of which were with Koni Lutziger as of two years ago? Based on the Roma plate study done, we can speculate that Gianluigi Boccia purchased 813910 from Switzerland (probably Lutziger?) and that it went back to Lutziger after your friend's death? Was any of this path true for 814064 as well?

If you have additional images of any cars that may be of interest to my studies, I would be very pleased to see them. Please use iicarATearthlinkNET (an ampersand replacing the "AT" and a "punto" just before "net".

Grazie!

John
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-24-2018, 12:56 PM
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FWIW, let me chime in with a couple of asides that may confirm some of the John's notions:

A friend of mine started to dig up records from the 1950s in a Swiss archive (discussed in ongoing offline conversations and I started with John earlier this year), listing the following chassis numbers:

  • 814047, described as an "Alfa Lungo" (supporting John's notion of 814064 unlikely to be a Pescara), seems to have had engine number 823106.
  • 814184(?) seems to have had engine T-823367.
  • 814197 seems to have had engine 823366 (note the consecutive engine number of the car listed above).
  • 824227 seems to have had engine T-823437.
Please note that, (a) the "T" preceding the engine number may indicate a "Turismo" designation (as John pointed out), and (b) that the presence or absence of the "T" may be simply be a matter of accuracy in record keeping and/or reflect what information the officials considered to be important at the time. I put a question mark "(?)" after one of the chassis numbers because I'm not sure I was able to decipher the last two digits of the number correctly.

Although I found no records for 814064, the chassis and engine number pairings of the cars listed above may indicate a pattern that would make it plausible that 814064 indeed may have had engine 823139 from the factory, but "813910 which was fitted originally with engine 823904" would not confirm such a pattern.

Furthermore, the Swiss Car Register may have detailed records of the Ramseier/Worblaufen coach builder that could confirm how many Alfas were bodied there, but I don't know whether or not such records would include chassis and engine numbers.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 11-24-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 07:54 AM
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814064 & 813910

My notes show that I saw both of these cars two years ago with Mr. Lutziger.

It seems I oversimplified my description as to what we think we know about these two cars and some similar examples. I am editing a private listing of all the 814xxx chassis numbers and a few of the 8139xx chassis numbers to show clearly that these are two different series. The listing will arrive shortly via emails to each of you. The engine number pairings will seem like nonsense if you combine the two series and treat them as one. When separated and looked at as individual series, I believe the engine number pairings seem as if they "make sense".

Since there are almost no Alfa Romeo records remaining from the 1930's, we have to find other documentation to tell us what the original engine pairings are with certainty. When a car exists today and it has its original ID plate, we can pretend that we know the original pairing, subject to whatever uncertainty that may exist as to the originality of the ID plate. When we find a PRA record of a car being registered for the first time, and when that record reports the engine number, then we can be pretty certain we know the original pairing. When there is an importation record and/or an insurance document and/or a racing entry document from the early years of a car's life, and when that document shows the engine number as well as the chassis number, we can feel fairly comfortable that we know something about an historic pairing that may well be original.

I probably have additional info for both of you regarding one or both of these cars, but that will have to await my return home at the end of next week and a trip through my paper files as well as a visit to the scanner? Regardless, there will continue to be more to study!

John
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 10:48 AM
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6C2300B Turismo (a.k.a. "Lungo") and more

Since this discussion is public, I thought it appropriate to share some highlights of what we think we know about a segment of 6C2300B production and how it relates to this discussion. It is shared here in A4 format. Also, a worksheet is shared here as a reminder of what I try to record when I see one of these cars.
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File Type: pdf AR6C2300Boverview-discussionAlfaBB-iicarNotes2018-11-25-A4.pdf (456.2 KB, 37 views)
File Type: pdf A4-AR6C2300B-2500-2900-DATAworksheet-2016-11-16-English.pdf (325.8 KB, 28 views)
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