Alfa Romeo Jankovits 6C 2300 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Alfa Romeo Jankovits 6C 2300

There is a higly interesting story hiding behind this magnificent car. It was born as a project of Jankovits brothers from Hungary, Gino e Oscar in 1938. Alfa Romeo, through Wifredo Ricart, had already on the table the "Tipo 163" project intended to be a Sport version of the Tipo 512 Grand Prix car. As already known, the Tipo 512 would have a 1.5 liter 12 cylinder boxer engine placed at the centre while the Tipo 163 the 3 liter 16-cylinder engine of the Tipo 162 project. When Jankovits brothers heared of the Ricart's intentions, went to Ricart's office asking from him to give them one such chassis and an engine. Ricart agreed partially and gave them a chassis but not the engine. The Jankovits car was similar in shape with that of Ricart but they already had a plan to construct it by 1934. Having that chassis they started constructing the car using the gearbox and the 6-cylinder engine from a 6C 2300 Pescara. At firts (1938-1939) their car was cinstructed as an open-wheeler. In this form the car served as a test car for their own-designed suspension and some Lancia and Buick parts. In 1939 was bodied as a spider at the Lampo shop in Fiume based on an original design of Oscar Jankovits helped also for that by Herman Graber. The car was then shipped to the USA. then in 1978 it was found in North Ireland. Luigi Fusi tried to buy it on behalf of the Alfa Romeo museum but without any luck. Recently the car was sold to someone Nazario Bacchi from Forli. The car was restorated after the help of the Jankovits brothers.
This is a part of the marvelous story being presented in the October issue (No 202) of the "Ruoteclassiche" magazine. It also has some period technical drawings of the suspension elements and the chassis of the car and some magnificent pics of the rebuilt car!

I tried to find 3 pictures on the web with the car prior to its restoration:


Last edited by Tubolare Zagato; 10-30-2005 at 12:35 PM.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 02:02 PM
 
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Very interesting car. It's difficult for north Americans to learn about "oddball" cars like this, as no one imports any of the european automotive history magazines, except for those in the English language. Even if they did, only a handful of nuts like me would be willing to have to pay $10-$15 per issue for something in a language other than English. There is not only Routeclassiche, but also Auto d'Epoca and at least 10 others from Italy, France and eastern Europe.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hi Stu!
I particularly like Autocollezioni magazine! In the next issue there will be a test drive of the Giannini 650 NP Gr.5!
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 03:16 PM
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Ruoteclassiche costs no less than Euro 11 here, but I bought this issue as well.

Although the story fits with previous ones already published, including one in English (not sure if in Classic and sports cars or Thoroughbred and classic cars), I highly doubt the part of it sourcing the chassis at Alfa. There was probably some help from Alfa, but I wonder how the chassis could be on Jankovits drawing signed and dated 1935 and at the same time be a forerunner of the 512 one. Not only they have nothing to do with each other in shape and construction, but the Jankovits one has the look of a hand crafted thing designed for easy construction (straight, parallel frame rails of plain ladder type, I or C section, hard to tell from the docs, thus already outdated in the 1937 GP cars construction) and its design is dated of a period when Ricart was not yet in Italy. He began working on the 1940 generation of GP cars (162 and 512) from 1938, and the 162 was designed before the 512, as the 158 was designed in 1937 and raced first time mid-1938. Since the Jankovits 6C was already running under a provisory body in 1938, the frame cannot be a 512 prototype. And those advanced project were certainly not in the public dominion prior to 1940, their first test runs. Moreover, the 163 is hardly a prewar project as well. It was more likely developped from 1940 on.

I must say that I read twice or three times the Ruoteclassiche article as it first seemed pure nonsense as for the Jankovits/512 parenthood. Then, when you check carefully every sentence, you realize that they don't say there's a link with the 163, although a quick reading leaves that impression.

So, I guess the author didn't want to write plain b*llsh*t, but was somehow compelled to get the article more "sexy", as did the "spin doctors" (no, Stu isn't involved ) about the intelligence on nuclear weapons in Iraq...

I wonder if the car will come for sale in short time...
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
I highly doubt the part of it sourcing the chassis at Alfa. There was probably some help from Alfa, but I wonder how the chassis could be on Jankovits drawing signed and dated 1935 and at the same time be a forerunner of the 512 one. Not only they have nothing to do with each other in shape and construction, but the Jankovits one has the look of a hand crafted thing ...
I've been busy slowly reading two articles in LaManovella from October 2001 by our friend Elvira Ruocco, one titled "the Spanish Alfa " [the 512] and the other "the Alfa only dreamed," [the 163]. But attached to the article is a 2 page sidebar, I think by Ruocco, about this car--I think offered tongue in cheek. Nothing but some parts look Alfa or Ricart here.

--Carter
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
Ruoteclassiche costs no less than Euro 11 here, but I bought this issue as well.

Although the story fits with previous ones already published, including one in English (not sure if in Classic and sports cars or Thoroughbred and classic cars), I highly doubt the part of it sourcing the chassis at Alfa. There was probably some help from Alfa, but I wonder how the chassis could be on Jankovits drawing signed and dated 1935 and at the same time be a forerunner of the 512 one. Not only they have nothing to do with each other in shape and construction, but the Jankovits one has the look of a hand crafted thing designed for easy construction (straight, parallel frame rails of plain ladder type, I or C section, hard to tell from the docs, thus already outdated in the 1937 GP cars construction) and its design is dated of a period when Ricart was not yet in Italy. He began working on the 1940 generation of GP cars (162 and 512) from 1938, and the 162 was designed before the 512, as the 158 was designed in 1937 and raced first time mid-1938. Since the Jankovits 6C was already running under a provisory body in 1938, the frame cannot be a 512 prototype. And those advanced project were certainly not in the public dominion prior to 1940, their first test runs. Moreover, the 163 is hardly a prewar project as well. It was more likely developped from 1940 on.

I must say that I read twice or three times the Ruoteclassiche article as it first seemed pure nonsense as for the Jankovits/512 parenthood. Then, when you check carefully every sentence, you realize that they don't say there's a link with the 163, although a quick reading leaves that impression.

So, I guess the author didn't want to write plain b*llsh*t, but was somehow compelled to get the article more "sexy", as did the "spin doctors" (no, Stu isn't involved ) about the intelligence on nuclear weapons in Iraq...

I wonder if the car will come for sale in short time...
Ya, that's it....the WMDs are hiding under my bed...
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2005, 01:14 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
(...)
I wonder how the chassis could be on Jankovits drawing signed and dated 1935 and at the same time be a forerunner of the 512 one. Not only they have nothing to do with each other in shape and construction, but the Jankovits one has the look of a hand crafted thing designed for easy construction (straight, parallel frame rails of plain ladder type, I or C section, hard to tell from the docs, thus already outdated in the 1937 GP cars construction) and its design is dated of a period when Ricart was not yet in Italy. He began working on the 1940 generation of GP cars (162 and 512) from 1938, and the 162 was designed before the 512, as the 158 was designed in 1937 and raced first time mid-1938. Since the Jankovits 6C was already running under a provisory body in 1938, the frame cannot be a 512 prototype. And those advanced project were certainly not in the public dominion prior to 1940, their first test runs. Moreover, the 163 is hardly a prewar project as well. It was more likely developped from 1940 on.
(...)
Hi Patrick!
It seems also to me weird for Alfa Romeo to give such a mystical at the time project to a both of brothers. Just a thought though. Maybe this drawing had been made by them prior getting the chassis from Wifredo Ricart? You can read into the article that the two brothers were thinking of this project as back as in 1934 probably inspired by the Auto Union GP cars. As for the Alfa Romeo engine clearly visible as such in the drawing, maybe they already had it in their possesion planning to put it in the car when this would have been completed? But at the other side this also seems weird just because they clearly built the car with the intention to have a really bigger engine as can be seen in the small picture in page 60 where you can see a small engine put into a very large engine bay.
Maybe it would ne a nice idea to send a letter to Ruoteclassiche asking about all these things?

Last edited by Tubolare Zagato; 10-31-2005 at 01:32 AM.
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2005, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato
Hi Patrick!
It seems also to me weird for Alfa Romeo to give such a mystical at the time project to a both of brothers. Just a thought though. Maybe this drawing had been made by them prior getting the chassis from Wifredo Ricart? You can read into the article that the two brothers were thinking of this project as back as in 1934 probably inspired by the Auto Union GP cars. As for the Alfa Romeo engine clearly visible as such in the drawing, maybe they already had it in their possesion planning to put it in the car when this would have been completed? But at the other side this also seems weird just because they clearly built the car with the intention to have a really bigger engine as can be seen in the small picture in page 60 where you can see a small engine put into a very large engine bay.
Maybe it would ne a nice idea to send a letter to Ruoteclassiche asking about all these things?
I have tought to write a letter, but I'm probably too lazy to write to every magazine publishing questionable tales about Alfas

And when I watch the pic of the inside, I'm not sure that what we see as being seemingly frame members fits the drawing, so the actual car might also not look like the accompanying documents. We'll probably know more with further articles on the car, now it has been restored.

Anyway it doesn't change anything to the messy chronology implied by the Jankovits/Ricart theory, as it is documented the car was completed, with minimal bodywork, in 1938.

Stu, how about very obscure WMDs?
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-2005, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gtv2000
Stu, how about very obscure WMDs?
Yes, they are so obscure no one in the US government can find them! Maybe they simply don't exist
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-21-2006, 11:27 AM
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it has privies been up in this tread

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...scar+Jankovits
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-13-2006, 05:33 PM
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I believe this car was on Artcurial's auction block this past month.

http://www.auction.fr/cp/artcurial/h...3D%26passe%3D1
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-13-2006, 08:38 PM
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Try this link, the above does not work: http://www.auction.fr/fr/base/lot.ph...passe=1&lot=52

Interestingly, the catalogue entry states that the car was owned by Colin Crabbe, a well-known discoverer of lost exotics during the 60s and 70s. He used to run the Complete Automobilist vintage parts store in the UK but I believe he has recently retired.

Alex.
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Last edited by Alex; 03-13-2006 at 09:09 PM.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-14-2006, 07:45 AM
 
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Any idea what the blue Cisitalia 202 went for?
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-14-2006, 08:05 AM
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Any idea what the blue Cisitalia 202 went for?
Sorry about the bad link.
According to their website, the Cisitalia did not sell.
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-07-2006, 06:00 PM
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There's a new article on this car by the journalist Mick Walsh in this month's Classic and Sportscar in the UK - it gets the full treatment and there are some great photos of the car since an obviously careful and sensitive restoration. I'm not going to post a scan, sorry, but it's worth hunting out a copy if you can (the front cover has a yellow Ferrari 355 on it). A brief test drive revealed that the steering at low speed is so awful that it was thought that the steering column was binding! Apparently the French sale fell through ....

Alex.

Last edited by Alex; 04-07-2006 at 06:03 PM.
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