hydrocarbon refrigerant - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-01-2014, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
lotuseleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 515
hydrocarbon refrigerant

Anyone have experience with ES12a or equivalent hydrocarbon refrigerant? It's apparently not authorized in US for auto AC systems, but seems to be pretty common in other parts of the world. this site says it is now available, AutoRefrigerants and HomeRefrigerants, and seems pretty reasonable cost. anyone in denver area want to split a case? no need to pull a vacuum, direct replacement for r12, blows colder than r134. What's not to like?

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
lotuseleven is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 03:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,486
Right- so much easier to deal with than r134a/r12. No comparison. Ive quit entirely messing with r134a/r12. No such thing as illegal- just interpretation of the EPA laws regarding using alternatives in an R12 system- you have to change out the port fittings to r134a, THEN youre OK.

So much baloney out there by mis-informed individuals on the flammability too. Just beware. All refrigerants are flammable- just at different temps. And ES12 has a narrow band of flammability range (about 2-9% concentration where vulnerable to flammability). very difficult to hit that range in every day driving/crash situations.

87 spider veloce
Joe Papa Sr is offline  
post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
lotuseleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 515
Thanks, Joe, glad to find someone with experience, and your reply is in line with what I expected. I hear there's other stuff under the hood that can also burn that I'd be more concerned about. If it weren't for some big balloon in the thirties, we'd probably be driving cars powered by hydrogen now.

Am I correct in thinking that I don't have to pull a vacuum?

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
lotuseleven is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 02:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,486
Well, Stan, they usually suggest to pull only a 5-10 " mercury vac. That Im not sure why, but they dont suggest to vac down to deep levels familiar with the R134a/r12 people. A tiny bit of moisture wont hurt the system with hC like it will with halogenated gasses. besides, the silica gel dessicant in the dryer will hold up to 10 mls of water anyway. Thats what Ive always done, and no troubles so far. So dont sweat it (pun??), no need to suck out to 29.9+ " mercury. Oh- if you dont have a vac pump, get a low cost venturi from HF for about $12. Hook it up to a compressor (assuming you do have one of those).

So many more advantages of HC gas , havnt listed them all yet. Good luck, man.

Sr

87 spider veloce

Last edited by Joe Papa Sr; 09-05-2014 at 02:57 PM.
Joe Papa Sr is offline  
post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
lotuseleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
. Oh- if you dont have a vac pump, get a low cost venturi from HF for about $12. Hook it up to a compressor (assuming you do have one of those).

So many more advantages of HC gas , havnt listed them all yet. Good luck, man.

Sr
I've got a huge Vac pump for pulling the fabric down on my Laser-cutting table. could probably suck a golfball through a garden hose. just need to figure out how to connect it to the AC. I think the inlet is 1.5"

Thanks for the help!

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
lotuseleven is online now  
post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-06-2014, 09:58 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,486
Ok, Stan, maybe we should know a few more bits of info on your cars ac as so far, your post has not mentioned much on this- age, last time cars ac worked, etc etc. Could matter some........Oh- careful not to pull too much vac, as you said.....

87 spider veloce
Joe Papa Sr is offline  
post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-06-2014, 11:56 AM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,805
You cannot "pull too much vacuum" on an AC system. That's not even a possibility.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-06-2014, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
lotuseleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 515
It's for my 91 164s, a capillary tube cracked when the engine was going back in, so it is at zero pressure. the instructions sheet from enviro-safe es12a manufacturer(?) says not to "charge into vacuum state" http://www.es-refrigerants.com/docs/31172_310.pdf, I read that as meaning they don't recommend pulling any vacuum, except perhaps to test for leaks. Either way, it sounds like a pretty easy and painless alternative, thanks for the help!

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
lotuseleven is online now  
post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 03:57 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
You cannot "pull too much vacuum" on an AC system. That's not even a possibility.
Yes, Tom, I agree if were talking about most appliocations like R134a and r12. But with HC, you dont need a high vac, and the manufacturers (not me) have deemed that not only it is not necessary, but that you Can pull too much. reason for high vac for halogenated refrigerants is moisture can/will react with the fluorine/chlorine to form acids . - cant happen with HC. Thats what their tech service/tech instructions warn about and advise against. Thats what I meant when I suggested not to pull too much.

But it still, in my opinion, is not a big deal. So many other major relevant factors to focus on when discussing HC refrigerants. hC's are just so much fun!!

87 spider veloce

Last edited by Joe Papa Sr; 09-07-2014 at 04:05 PM.
Joe Papa Sr is offline  
post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 04:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotuseleven View Post
It's for my 91 164s, a capillary tube cracked when the engine was going back in, so it is at zero pressure. the instructions sheet from enviro-safe es12a manufacturer(?) says not to "charge into vacuum state" http://www.es-refrigerants.com/docs/31172_310.pdf, I read that as meaning they don't recommend pulling any vacuum, except perhaps to test for leaks. Either way, it sounds like a pretty easy and painless alternative, thanks for the help!
Right- youre on the right track, lotus. Keep going. Hey, please let us know what happens as we do care. (if you "opened up" the system , as you have with zero pressure/cracked tube, you should get a new dryer- I figured you probably know that already- basic ac stuff.........

87 spider veloce
Joe Papa Sr is offline  
post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
lotuseleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
Right- youre on the right track, lotus. Keep going. Hey, please let us know what happens as we do care. (if you "opened up" the system , as you have with zero pressure/cracked tube, you should get a new dryer- I figured you probably know that already- basic ac stuff.........
Actually, I confess to complete ignorance in AC systems, have no idea what a dryer is or where to get one, but now I know to start looking! I thought it was all just smoke and magic.

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
lotuseleven is online now  
post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 07:58 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,960
No matter what refrigerant you are using, moisture can freeze in the evaporator. I don't know if all evaporators are the same, but some have small bore tubes that can be completely blocked by ice crystals.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is online now  
post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 08:09 PM
Registered User
 
oz3litre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Posts: 3,806
We call it ER12 here and in my experience it is the only stuff to use in R12 systems. It runs far cooler than R134A and is perfectly safe. I have read tests where they couldn't get it to explode in a completely sealed cabin. It worked beautifully in my 75 and after sealing up the blower motor to condenser interface with high density foam, our 164 blew colder than any 164 ever did, even new.

Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), sonís girlfiendís car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (sonís new car).

Non Alfa
1988 Range Rover Classic Highline 3.9 V8

Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
oz3litre is offline  
post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 06:43 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Roadtrip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City SD, Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 9,937
ES12 works very well. However I would not use it unless my system sealed without leaks, especially in the interior. There is a scent (pine I believe) that is part of the formula.

John Stewart
74 Spider
91 164S
Roadtrip is offline  
post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-08-2014, 07:22 AM
Registered User
 
oz3litre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Posts: 3,806
Here are two articles on the safety of ER12 that I saved. You might find them interesting. In particular look at page 12 of the first one.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Er12 info.pdf (170.9 KB, 294 views)
File Type: pdf ER12 usage_risk_mvac.pdf (135.2 KB, 491 views)

Current Alfas
2010 159 ti 1750 TBI sedan (red).
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.
2000 156 Monza Twin Spark, (Cosmos Blue metallic), sonís girlfiendís car.
1999 GTV 3 litre 24 valve V6, metallic black, (sonís new car).

Non Alfa
1988 Range Rover Classic Highline 3.9 V8

Past Alfas
1989 75 3 litre, written off by runaway van.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
oz3litre is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome