New Member and New (To Me) '77 Canary Yellow Spider - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 03:52 AM Thread Starter
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New Member and New (To Me) '77 Canary Yellow Spider

Hello,

I am new to the forum and just getting back into the Spider after a 19 year hiatus. My previous car was a 1984 Red Spider Veloce and going from memory a little easier beast to tame than this new acquisition which is a 1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider (SPICA) and was the subject of a previous thread:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spid...questions.html

I found the car on Craig’s list and after using Google Images on one of the photos to see if the post was a scam found the above article on your BB which proved very helpful.

I picked up the car 3 weeks ago and am planning to go through it system by system but so far it appears to be a better car than I originally thought. First thing I did was buff her out and the original paint came back to life. I have also cleaned the engine bay so I can get a better look at the leaks.

The BB has been a great source of information so far and I have procured some of the suggested literature (i.e. The Alfa Owners Bible, Wes Ingram’s SPICA book and the DVD from CARID).

I am currently trying to get the car running “right”. It ran and drove but was pumping black soot and the plugs were covered black soot as well. Car would drive reasonably well but the idle is very low and sometimes would cut.

First step was a new TA which I got from Ingram and have installed and set pump gap to 0.19”. Car now starts up instantly and idles about 1500rpm (according to onboard tach) then settles down to something I will have to set my tach up to measure. I have also cleaned the OSV – but as this appears to be very important I have also ordered a new stainless steel version.

Plan now is to check timing (almost impossible to locate timing marks on this car as the crank pulley is surrounded by smog pump and brackets), and to get that set if not correct.

I don’t think the relay crank is out of adjustment but no easy way to verify without “the tool” other than the throttle plates are closed at idle and putting my hand over them does not cause stumble. Pinching the individual air tubes does though which should be a good sign. Also placing thumb over idle port or vacuum hose that goes from right side (front of engine) of manifold to OSV will cause the car to stall.

Next I then plan to go after the fuel mixture at 2500 rpm as Wes Ingram suggests then hopefully the mixture will be reasonably correct and adjustment to idle air will be effective. Am thinking of just pulling the FCS and setting it to the 9.5 to 10 turns Wes suggests to start as I suspect the PO’s mechanic leaned this out to compensate for the TA which may be contributing to the low idle when engine is warm.

The only ugly thing I have found so far, and almost kept me from buying the car, is that the head is leaking oil between the #2 and #3 cylinder. As the car has so few miles on it (23,006 to be exact), I am hoping I can just re-torque the head to clear this up. No mixing in oil or antifreeze that I have found so far so hopefully a good sign.

Darren
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1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 04:42 AM
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Welcome!

Are you aware of the Mid-Atlantic Alfa Romeo Club? We meet about once a month at a restaurant in the Raleigh-Durham area. (our club is better described as an eating club with a driving disorder...)

- - Eric
don't read this
~ 1984 Spider Veloce ~
- -~ 1981 GTV-6 ~
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Looks like the club has a meeting on 18-Jan - will try my best to be there.

1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-21-2017, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Update

I have now performed the following:

1) Checked the ignition timing and dwell. Dwell was off a couple of degrees but not being sure how accurate the instrument is and considering how well the engine runs, I left that alone. The timing was pretty much on as well so left it be.
2) Tuned the mixture at 2500 rpm as well as idle.
3) Wet re-torque of head to 58 ft-lbs. No longer see the stream of oil upon startup between #2 and 3 cylinder. However, I figure I am on borrowed time with this one.
4) Replaced the inky black oil with Castrol 20W 50, a new oil filter, new SPICA oil filter (Old one looked like a gooey black mess), and suctioned out the SPICA logic section oil and put a pint or so of clean 20W 50 in it as well.
5) Greased the drive shaft spline with NLGI 1 grease.
6) Took the car out this morning for an "Italian Tune Up". Got it warm for about 30 minutes then ran it down I-540 for 15 miles at about 5000 rpm.

I hear a few creaks and groans from the rear end when shifting at low speeds and intermittently when turning as well as when driving the car above 80mph. Nothing alarming but likely things that will need attention due to age. Just have to identify what they are. But overall drives well.

I know my motor mounts are a little swollen with oil and the oil pan appears to be sitting on the oil pan guard though there is still a good gap fan to radiator (worried about exploding fan and infamous Alfa dent) so I think motor and transmission mounts are next as well as new lube for the gearbox and differential.

I have also procured an earlier two piece cast exhaust manifold (numbers match for a 1972 per the CARID DVD) and plan to put it and an earlier center section in eliminating the existing cracked manifold (#1 cylinder), smog pump and catalytic converter. Hoping this will add a little pep as well.

1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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Update on The Canary Yellow '77 Low Miles Spider

Well Intended to replace tranny mount, guibo and motor mounts this weekend while I had access to friends lift. While there is no rust and the nut on the bolt for the tranny mount came right off, we could not push the bolt out of the mount. We felt like the mount was not broken internally, so that was good, and the guibo was perfect so did not touch that either but will likely change that later just due to age. So we abandoned the tranny mount for now and moved on to the motor mounts.

I have heard the SPICA spiders are the easiest in terms of changing motor mounts. But even at that the right mount near the pump was a pain and it took both of us raising/lowering and tugging on the motor to get it into a position where it could be replaced. But when completed, wow what a difference.

The motor was sitting on the oil pan guard and cross member. This was likely the clunking as the motor torquing and then settling back on the cross member was likely making the noise. The oil pan is now a good 3/4" above the oil pan guard now. The right motor mount was probably about that much shorter than the new one.

Only bad thing was we discovered a very worn track rod end, left side connected to steering box. All others looked fine. One wonders why this one is the only one so worn. At any rate, ordered a set from Vick and should have them to install this weekend. Hopefully these will separate easily .

Here are some more recent photos of the car after I buffed out the tired original paint.
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1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:11 AM
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Looks like you have yourself a nice little running resto. The noise you hear from the back could likely be trailing arm bushes. (not that hard to replace, and, if your not racing the car you get a much better ride with the rubber ones) Cheers John.

Current cars 1975 spyder under resto, 1973 Berlina Resto 1976 Berlina parts car 1972 GTjunior fully restored, 1 complete rolling shell spyder.exit 1989 75 T/S sold
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:20 AM
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i see a Z in the background
in its day was as good,if not better
how do you find the differance & what year is the Z
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by dhayes5 View Post
...
I have heard the SPICA spiders are the easiest in terms of changing motor mounts. But even at that the right mount near the pump was a pain and it took both of us raising/lowering and tugging on the motor to get it into a position where it could be replaced. But when completed, wow what a difference...
A victim of fake news I'm afraid. SPICA mounts are the hardest to remove, at least the one under the intake. Little or no room to work and the plates and screws that attach to both.

Good for you to be able to accomplish the R&R!
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gprocket View Post
A victim of fake news I'm afraid. SPICA mounts are the hardest to remove, at least the one under the intake. Little or no room to work and the plates and screws that attach to both.

Good for you to be able to accomplish the R&R!
Richard. I think your confusing Spica with the Bosch cars. Spicas are easier on the intake side as every nut is right in front of you when you remove the airbox.

As to the problem of lining them up. For 10 years mid 80's to mid 90's I never had a problem changing the mounts. At Alfa shop I worked at. We mainly used the square Pirelli mounts. As they held up longer then the OEM. But 20 years later when I started by Alfas and putting them back on the road to sell. I have found that on the mounts that are made today which are aftermarket. the base plate one one of the mounts is not bonded to the rubber at the correct angle. If I remember correctly it is the right side one. You have to actually either twist the rubber to get the bolt in or which is what I have done on the last few is just open up the slot a little bit.

I finally figured this out when I had the head off on a 1988. With the head off. They should just go right on. Thats when I realized that the metal mount base plate was off just a little bit.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10yrsalfter View Post
i see a Z in the background
in its day was as good,if not better
how do you find the differance & what year is the Z
The Z is a 1972. I purchased it 16 years ago with 69k original. Now has about 85k.

The Z is a very different animal from the Alfa. It is much faster and handles better but is a bit more harsh. The Z is also very forgiving of being left to sit. In fact, a friend of mine just picked up a '74 260 that sat in barn for 32 years. He shot a little starter fluid it, jumped it and it started right up. Japanese reliability. The Z is also easier to work on than the Alfa. But other than the occasional cleaning of carbs and tuning, I have not had to do much to the Z. IMHO the S30 Z is one of the most beautiful sports cars ever built. But all that said it is not a rag top.

The Alfa has a very well balanced engine, is much quieter and pleasant for cruising around - especially with the top down. You can rev it high and it is less fatiguing than the Z at similar rpm. The steering on the Alfa is much lighter too.

I also think the Spider has great lines as well. Good or better are not really applicable. They are just different. Neither are super expensive cars and so I guess I am lucky that two of my favorite cars are very affordable.

1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 06:12 AM
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when you can copy the 63 GTO TO THAT EXTENT yes is is a very pretty car
bought my z (first car ever) because 6' tall driving extended a gtv was out of the question
been driving a spider for 2 plus year,my first long drive was killing my right front knee
seat all the way back & arms fully extended
Alfa fells much more solid & precise
70's cars front the orient are like CHINA now
felt tinny overall quality Alfa much higher & not a copy cat
as a 18 year old loved that car so much just couldn't afford an Alfa at the time
but seating comfort Z was a dream no regrets but doing 60mph with a wind facing very unstable

spider very much more & my Z had the 4 koni shocks
very nice journey through the past,1 garage & 2 2 seaters must be nice
enjoy
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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Low Speed Vibration Problem - Help!

Need help troubleshooting an issue that is driving me crazy.
The problem started a couple of months back after driving the car to work a couple of times (75miles round trip on interstate highway). First manifested after I took my exit and was coming to a stop. With clutch in, gearbox in neutral and braking - when down to between 10 - 5 - 0 mph picked up a judder or vibration in driveline but hard to pinpoint from where.

As I am rebuilding the systems on this car anyway, my first inclination was that perhaps the clutch slave was leaking (bypassing somehow) and not fully disengageg though the engine did not stall. I have since put in a new master, rubber hose, and slave. Now I have clean fluid (instead of black sludge and a slave with a plugged bleed screw) and a firm pedal. But did not fix issue.

I have also rebuilt the brake system completely thinking that maybe I had a warped rotor (well the fronts were scored on one side pretty badly) and/or maybe a caliper dragging due to age. Wanted to do this anyway so I put in a new ATE 22mm master, new rubber hoses, new proportioning valve, new porterfield pads, new front and turned back rotors, and had the original calipers rebuilt by PMB performance. So new system, firm brake pedal, brake squeak gone and stops well. But problem with vibration persists.

So, clutch does not slip and no other driveability issues, other than the low speed vibration (which I also notice when running through a parking lot in first around corners and over speed bumps (really low speed <5mph).

One thing that I started to wonder about was the LSD. I did change what I assume was 50 year old transmission and differential fluid with Valvoline High Performance 80W-90 Gear Oil for Limited Slip. This vibration came maybe 200 miles later (hard to say as I have only put 600miles total on the car). But reading as much as I could find on the forum about this topic I started to think this fluid not "slippy" enough and maybe finally pushed the old fluid out of the clutch packs and was causing the vibration/chatter. So, I ordered and replaced the gear lube in the differential with Redline 75W-90 from Centerline (the non-NS stuff). Hoping this cures the problem but has not in 30 miles of driving so far. Going to go out for a much longer drive this morning.

Also, when changing to the Redline Friday night, I saw no debris from clutch packs come out with the fluid or any material on the magnetic plug.

I have searched and searched this site (I know and have read that the LSD lube issue has been exhausted - hence my purchase of the Redline fluid). Most people talk about LSD issues related to chatter around corners or when accelerating from first gear. My car does not have issues with first gear acceleration or any other acceleration - that part works like a champ. Only deceleration from about 5/10mph down to 0 (hard to say since speedo stops registering around 20mph) do I get this problem.

Any help would be appreciated and the car is the car in this post - 23k original mile '77 Spider.

1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 04:48 AM
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Have you checked the guibo?? (the rubber flex joint at the back of the g/box
And also the centre bearing.

Current cars 1975 spyder under resto, 1973 Berlina Resto 1976 Berlina parts car 1972 GTjunior fully restored, 1 complete rolling shell spyder.exit 1989 75 T/S sold
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 05:08 AM
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U-joint going dry and dying?
Yeah, clutch in but the shaft is still turning.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Cannot easily check the center bearing but did check guibo and it looks good with no cracks. I was hoping this was it.

Also, I drove the car about 70 miles on the highway this morning. Ran and accelerated fine. But again when coming to a stop it would shudder. Also went to a local parking lot and just did tight circles at low speed. Again the shudder when turning left or right but if running above 20mph, the shudder is gone.

Thank you for the suggestion.

1977 Canary Yellow 2000 Spider Veloce (23K Original)
1984 Spider Veloce (Sold 1998), 1972 Datsun 240Z
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