1965 Giulia GTA 1600 (Auto Delta Corsa ?) - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
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1965 Giulia GTA 1600 (Auto Delta Corsa ?)

Hello,

A friend of mine has recently acquired a 1965 Giulia GTA in Belgium,with frame number #613107. He has asked me to research the history. I am a former employee of Fiat Auto Belgio and have experienced the take over of Alfa Romeo Benelux. We are pretty sure this is an original GTA. Currently, the sole source that confirms it is a real GTA is the Maurizio Tabucchi.
The 3rd volume of Tony Adriaenssen Allegerita could give some certainty but we only have the one volume first series of this book, and are still searching for the 3rd volume.
The car came with 2 engines. We still have to check the engine numbers to know which one is the original one.
Since the car has an aluminium floor, and the engines have magnesium valve covers and oilpan, we have reason to believe this is a original Autodelta Corsa version. Another possibility is that it was prepared by a private tuner in France or Belgium.
We know the car was owned by one and the same person from 1968 on, and have heard rumours the car was originally delivered to France before it came to Belgium.
We are trying to figure out the history of this car. Can somebody tell us who or where we should look for confirmation of this chassisnumber please ?
And can somebody have a look at the engine. Could this be an original one ,somebody told us this could be a SA version ? I join some pictures but more will follow.
Thank you very much in advance.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 10:11 PM
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Hello there.
From the pictures you have posted so far, this appears to be a GTA & genuine GTA parts etc.
A current picture of the car as it is & the chassis number stamped on the firewall would also help.
The number does not currently show in even the newer Alleggerita editions, but this is not uncommon if the authors did not have any information on it.
You can also inquire with Alfa Romeo archives and they will tell you the model, body & trim colors, and to who it was first sold. You will have to supply the current to date photographic evidence to them to get this information. This is to prove it's current existence & where the car is, otherwise they will not give out information due to scammers faking cars.
This forum is also a very good resource for information on theses cars. If you provide current photos of everything and provenance/history and it all looks legitimate you will get good feedback & support from people here. We would welcome you to share more & perhaps we can be of future assistance.
613107 is certainly within the range of early GTAs produced on the assembly line with aluminium floors.
Kind regards,
Vince (RHD GTA 752556)
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 11:52 PM
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Welcome to this bb and to GTAs this seams to be a wonderful find.

Adding to what Vince has said the correct GTA engine bock had a specific serial number prefix, found on carb side, so pictures of that would be helpful. Also the cylinder head had a casting number on forward exhaust side. And there is a stamping in the forward trunk rain gutter.

Alleggeita 2nd edition is available in English and German from Dingwort-Verlag.de

More pictures please

Regards

Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
1970 Giulia Super (CDN Spec)
1976 1600 GTj (Italian Spec)
1966 Harley Sprint (Aermacchi) 250
2000 Catalina 320, Hull #765 Northern Dream
2001 BMW Z3 3.0i
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:23 AM
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Great find.
With any car you have to consider the rules it had to comply with to race at the time it was manufactured or upgraded/optioned, i.e. For Europe: FIA Appendix J 1965 rules as well as possible race series like 1967 European touring car challenges.
Here are some of the FIA homologation references for 1600 GTAs
FIA # 199 (group T),
FIA # 625 (group 4),
FIA # 1395 (group T),
I can see what looks like a rear axle bearing removal / installation tool. So the car had some serious use and looks like it's last major engine overhaul was not finished. Seems like time stood still for this car with the engine in review stage on the engine stand.

With 4 spot lights, hints to races spanning night time, like a 12 hour event or a night tarmac rally stage. The sticker on the bonnet also says 1972.
In 1972 FIA Appendix J rules did not allow you to reduce the weight of cars:
'Important: Since 1/1/72 all recognition concerning optional lightweight coachwork elements mentioned hereafter: doors, windows, engine bonnet and trunk lid, have been deleted. Consequently, the Technical Stewards are notified that the addenda to the basic recognition sheets regarding such optional equipment are no longer valid.'

So in 1972 we see this GTA 1600 being campaigned again as it's lightweight panels were standard. Probably running with no headlight rings was intentional to reduce the car's weight. This car's aluminum floors would have also given it a weight advantage, if it was up against larger engine cars.

Cheers
Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 05-12-2019 at 04:19 AM.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:19 AM
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Hello BOX 11,
At this point in time I think you are just trying to establish the basics & assorted FIA rules are a bit more than is needed at the moment.
If you can photograph the body & engine numbers as Ken suggested & more pictures of other components I think we can confirm at least the basics of what you are asking. The main body number is stamped on the Right side of engine bay firewall, plus secondary type identity number is stamped in the trunk opening gutter in Left hand top. The engine number is rearward of the distributor.

Steve, I doubt that anyone would remove the headlight rings just to reduce the cars weight....logically from the photo I would guess that from all the extra lights & a 12 Heures sticker on the hood, that headlight rims might well be removed for fast light adjustments or headlight globe replacements during that event.

Regards,
Vince.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:41 AM
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No significant history on this S/N

Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA Register 613107

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 09:18 AM
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There is an article in AUTOCAR April 6, 1967 of a Belgian sister car (registered NV 342) that is Autodelta prepared for rally as well.

Article is reprinted in the Brooklands Giulia Coupe book.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 06:45 PM
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I have been researching an Australian rally GT Veloce 1600 with limited competition history and was forced to go back to first principles for the detective work. So your friends car may also benefit from first principles detective work.

Here are some more suggestions. So if the registration plate NH490 is showing 1968 registration in Belgium, then you have a running car in 1968. So look up Belgian events from 1968 to 1972 (assuming it stayed in Belgium) entry lists for all the events it could have entered. As well as French events from 1965 to 1968 (assuming it stayed in France) entry lists for all the events it could have entered.

Look up the French and Belgium motor magazines for race results, and or the Alfa Romeo car clubs magazines in France and Belgium from 1965 to 1972, as well as local newspapers. Find out if any photos / film were taken, be it professional or amateur, or are held today by private collectors. Look up who was the event sponsor, the event organizer group and any key people like clerk of course. Some times European events were also reported in UK and Australian magazines so look these up as well from 1965 to 1972.

The inside of the car is showing white so there was a colour change at some point so look for both red or white cars. The ride height of the car is not as per a gravel rally car, and the tyres are not gravel knobbly type which implies a tarmac rally, so another clue. When were the spotlights used? have a look at this link https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/belgium/brussels From November to January the spotlights would have been helpful. The cylinder head shows the water plugs are all in line, like on my GTA engine, which is an early version of the GTA engine.

Having lived with friends in Brussels I know that undercover car park spots are quite valuable. So a car trailer may not have been used, thus the car was driven to events. These are not quite cars, when they start up and accelerate away people know it! Especially if you had to be at the race track by 8am you would be waking up the neighbors at 7am (takes about 1 hour to get to Nivelles from Brussels). Depending on where your friend found the car even the neighbors could have some memories of the car (possibly photos and race results). Here is the Circuit Nivelles-Baulers race track that was set up in 1971 not far from Brussels look at 4 min 8 seconds on the left of the track there appears to be two faint white lines (start/finish) as per the white lines in your photo. May be the car raced at this track?
Good luck.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 05-13-2019 at 01:32 AM.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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Belgian numberplates

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your help and the tips you gave me.

I have requested information from FCA Heritage and am waiting for an answer. Uptill know we have a fairly good idea of the cars history from 1968 on, since it stayed in Belgium and switched owner only once, before my friend bought it some weeks ago.

It was owned by Guy Borgers, a navy officer in Zeebrugge and Ostend (B). His mother owned the local Alfa Romeo official dealership in the neighbourhood (Middelkerke) at that time. Their mecanic, Yvan Godderis, was the person who trained me when I was doing my Bachelor in Automotive Engineering in 1988, and when he started working in the dealership actually worked for Autodelta for a certain time, not only in the factory but was also mecanic for their F1 team in the beginning years.

We are currently in contact with the son of the in mean time passed away former owner, and hope the will have some more information. The dealership as far as I know went broke, so there will probably not be much paperwork or archive that was saved.

Guy Borgers raced the car, untill now we have 2 pictures of the car racing at the 12 hrs of Ostend Rally in 1968 and 1972. In 1968 it was still in its original white, was apparently repainted in 1972 (question is why), and we retrieved in again another colour, the car having been repainted in a experimental colour and paint, sponsored by a paint manufacturer. More pictures will follow. The car has been stored outside for more than 10 years,and was found in a barn under a load of junk in a barn. I hate to use the word barnfind, since I always ask myself where the hell people keep finding all those barns, but I know for sure this was a real one. The car was known to quite a lot of people and Alfa enthousiasts in the neighbourhood, but was never put up for sale untill shortly since the owner passed away.

The numberplate is interesting, since it seems to have followed the car over the years. This is not common in Belgium, normally the numberplate follows the subscriber to the plate and changes cars. And in this case even more, since it is what we call a "merchant plate". They are used by car dealers to put on their cars that are for sale, or which need a test ride, it is basicaly not a permanent plate. Based upon the pictures, the plate has been on the car since at least 1972, on 1968 picture shows a different one. This has one big disadvantage, namely, since the plate is not permanent for the car, it refers to the owner, and not the VIN of the car it is on. This means we don't have a link between the VIN and any kind op paperwork. We do have the paperwork for the plate, but it only mentions the owner, not the VIN.

Apparently the "merchant plates" in those days started with the letters NH. This also explains why you can find pictures in the internet of other Belgian GTA's with registration NH.389 and NH.342. These were the official cars of the then official Alfa Romeo importer ALFA BENELUX. They were raced in both rally and track races,as e.g. 24 hrs of Spa, and were driven by official Alfa Romeo pilots like Christine Beckers and Jacky Ickx, amonst others.
We suspect our car had a brief racing history in France, before it came to Belgium. However, SOPAR, the then french Alfa Romeo importer has an official list of the VIN numbers that officially raced for them, and our car is not listed.

If the car raced in France, it should thus have been a privateer, which seems doubtfull, or entered races in France under a non French registration. That's where magazines from that time could come in handy.

Anyway, the story behind this car seems to be as intriguing as the car itself, I will keep you posted.

Thank you so much for your help,
Patrick
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:50 PM
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Hi Patrick,
Sounds like you know 95% of the cars ownership history & FCA Heritage will complete the rest. Other than that finding it's race history will be interesting & identifying what parts you have with the car. FYI, an SA engine needs a different front engine block cover with the compressor drive made into it. So far what you have shown is correct regular GTA parts. If you need help to ID anything just ask.
I look forward to see how this project interesting progresses.
regards, Vince.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 08:15 AM
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GTA *613107* was rally prepared by Autodelta for Georges Hacquin. Hacquin raced it at least from '6602-6702 with registration 0.M.964. I do not have later records of the car
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
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Hello Martinue,

Thank you for the information.

It is however conflicting with new information we received from the owner only yesterday. According to him, the car was imported in Belgium in 67 by the then official Alfa Romeo Importer Garage Vansteenkiste in Gent (B). Presumably from France where it had raced before

Georges Hacquin is Belgian and the numberplate OM.694 is also Belgian.

May I ask you what your source is please ?
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 01:08 AM
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The Archivio Storico in Arese had a copy of an invoice in their files, sent in late '65 from Autodelta to Alfa Romeo Benelux regarding the preparation of GTA *613107* for Georges Hacquin. We discovered it there during our research for Alleggerita II and the following books and noticed what we needed about. Photos that I got later show Hacquin in '66 and '67 with a white GTA and registration "0.M.694" (not "OM.694"), most likely that was *613107*.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 01:14 AM Thread Starter
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OK Thanks.

Do you have a copy of this invoice ?

To my knowledge this VIN is not mentionned in any of the Allegirata (I only have the first version). Why wasn't it mentionned when this kind of information was found in Arese I ask myself ?

Could you send me these photo's please ? I already have 3 pictures from that period with 3 different number plates, your O.M.694 would be the fourth. Which is of course perfectly possible.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 01:25 AM
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Sorry, I do not own copyrights of the invoice nor of the photos. What is in Alleggerita is what Tony Adriaensens (first edition 1994) and Patrick Dasse and me (second edition 2013) knew then. Digging for more history on the racing Alfa Romeos brought additional documents to light, some for the GTAs and GTAJs, too
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