1965 Giulia GTA 1600 (Auto Delta Corsa ?) - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BOX 11 View Post
Hi everybody,

I am slowly but steadily putting the history of the car together, which will most probably be done faster, and a hell of a lot cheaper than putting the car together.

However, the information I have been able to gather uptill now, is very interesting and very promising. From the moment everything is confirmed in official documents I will of course let you know.

According to the Centro Documentazione, the original documents do NOT state an engine number.
We know the car had some major engine damage (piston) in 1974, and have to make sure we still have the original engine block. Without documents this is not easy.

Is there anybody out there who can give me a hint on where to look, or where to find additional information please ?

The engine number is as follows, attached a picture of the number : AR 00502/A*18616
The AR Doc Centre seldom if ever is able to give an engine serial number with a chasis number for the 105 and 115 series and era of cars. It is assumed they do not know. They confirm the model, tell the build date, tell the sale date and tell the original buyer. They also tell the colour and interior type and colour. And that is all usually.

However there may be other information available in the Autodelta records if the car went through Autodelta and if there are Autodelta records existing for your serial number. It is thought that Autodelta at least produced a test (Prova) sheet for the engine serial number and another for the chassis and they are cross referenced to each other. You can see samples in Alleggerita 2nd ed.

The engine number you show is correct for GTA 1600.

Has the document centre give you the above mentioned information including the the original buyer?

There is a thread somewhere that members discuss interaction with the doc centre. It used to be easier than it is now. There you will find the current format that you must pay to get. It used to be free

Below is an example of the earlier format.

According to our documentation files, the chassis number AR 752507 originally corresponds to an Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA RHD (105.34), manufactured on the 21st July 1965 and sold on the 2nd February 1966 to Alfa Romeo Inc. from Newark, U.S.A.
The body colour is red, with black interiors.


The AD Prova sheet for the above RHD GTA shows it was in Autodelta in January 1966.

regards

Ken
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post #32 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 02:26 AM
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The dates for production, colour and invoice of the Alfa Romeo cars are recorded in books, one for each type of the cars. Alfa Romeo did not store the invoices themselves.

Alfa Romeo (Benelux) S.A. was established in 1965.
Alfa Romeo/Autodelta wrote Alfa Romeo Benelux at least since 19650804 in their correspondence.
We have noticed a sheet of Délégation Alfa Romeo pour le Benelux with date from 19650820. This was a copy only, it might have been compiled later.
A letter from Alfa Romeo Milano to Autodelta at Settimo Milanese regarding the preparation of GTAs for clients of their Delegazione del Benelux dates from 19650929.
Another letter from Délégation Alfa Romeo pour le Benelux, 18/24 Rue des Colonies, Bruxelles, to Alfa Romeo Milano dates from 19651006. This address is used by Autodelta for invoices at least until 19651210.
Autodelta wrote invoices to Alfa Romeo Benelux, 20, Rue Belliard, Bruxelles 4, at least since 19651221.
In 1970 Alfa Romeo Benelux S.A. moved to Chaussée de Zellik 65, 1080 Bruxelles.

By the way GTA *613107* was not even built in June '66 but was already delivered at the end of that year as Centro Documentazione will confirm. Further Hacquin was 1cl in the '66 Circuit des Ardennes and 1oa in the 12h de Oostende. Two weeks after the '67 Boucles de Spa he was 2oa/1cl in the EU-Rally, so a major damage in the event before is not very likely.

The “Paolini archive” was not known to me before as well as to Patrick Dasse, Patrick Italiano (who is in contact with Lorenzo Boscarelli), Vito Witting da Prato nor Arno Flach. And it is not public as a research on the web demonstrates. It is most likely the mixture of original and selfconstructed material including faked documents and photoshopped pics that Pajevic shares regularly on this board and with which he now intends to impose the new FIAT people at Centro Documentazione.
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post #33 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 10:50 AM
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Here we are again! Not that I have asked for ‘Expert’s’ intervention, but he is as usually, promptly ready with his comment. This time it is ridiculous and perfidy pathetic attempt to depict me as ostracised by others. Not necessary, but I will confirm my sincere respect for Mr. Boscarelli’s great work with AISA, and sophisticated researches (Gobbato for example) of Mr. Italiano. Remain my influence on “FIAT people”. They must be Mr. Fazio and Mr Ardizio, as they are the only young managers of FCA era that I have met. I know both of them as extremely kind and educated persons, extremely well prepared for their tasks and I sincerely do not understand pejorative sound in that “FIAT people”. Nice way to say ‘Thank you’, to the ones that have opened AR documents to a free consultation for Mr Dasse. Anyhow, thanks God, this forum is open space where anyone is free to chose its sources, included my fake documents. I am not so well informed to offer some colossal stupidity like the one that ‘Expert’ without problem stated recently in this forum about Angelini prepared GTA that (he said) was reimported from Senegal. It would be nice and romantic to imagine Leopold Senghor running in his GTA on the dusty savanna roads after liberation from French settlers, but alas the story was different, the GTA was not there and ‘Expert’ never saw it, in Senegal, Italy or elsewhere. So, I will go on with my fake documents, as long as someone accept them.
P.S. ‘Paolini’s (RIP) archive’ to be honest is not a true archive. It is simply huge number of Alfa, Autodelta (and some other topics), documents (some probably not true), never opened for consultation and destined to Museo Nazionale dell’Automobile, Corso Unità d’Italia 40, 10126 Torino. “So, let it be with Caesar…”
P.P.S. Someone in this forum have seen any original document (ever) posted by ‘Expert’, or he is so ‘Expert’ that his word is best guarantee…
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post #34 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 01:07 PM
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Hi ARGTAReg

Please do not confuse this discussion with some Senegal GTA of which most of us do not remember or care.

Martin U has written a number of acclaimed Alfa histories for which we are grateful. If you have discovered a new source of period Alfa information - “Paolini archive” - please share this information, so that our understanding of history is more accurate.

The accolade of 'expert' is hard earned and Martin U is an honorable member of that group....IMHO!

Richard
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post #35 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 08:17 PM
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Hi ARGTAReg

Please do not confuse this discussion with some Senegal GTA of which most of us do not remember or care. .....Richard
Forgive my ignorance, but why would anybody not care about a Senegal GTA?

I, for one would've been just as interested, as for instance, in a GTAm in El Salvador?

Definitely though, El Salvador is less 3rd world than Senegal, or maybe not.

All kidding aside, a GTA, is still a GTA

Regards, Alberto
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post #36 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 09:48 PM
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All kidding aside, a GTA, is still a GTA
If it left Alfa Romeo as a GTA ...
Pete

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post #37 of 49 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 04:48 AM
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The story of the Senegalese GTA *613760* is indeed an interesting one, there is an own thread for that car https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta...-613760-a.html. This GTA was sold in 1965 to Senegal according to Alfa Romeo. As I wrote there in post #23 the car had no history until 1990 when Angelini asked Fiat-Alfa for a Certificate of Origin to register the car which happened one year later. According to the registration papers Angelini purchased the car 19910403 from “Rolling S.r.l.”. In 2007 this car was inspected in Angelini's shop, it was most likely built on a GTAJ chassis. Since then the car was offered by several dealers in Italy, Belgium and the United States of America, but as the “Vallelunga Queen” of Ignazio Giunti, with which Giunti drove to some of his heroic wins. But that was GTA *613274* as can be read from the number plates. Until now, none of the owners/dealers/experts delivered the history of GTA *613760* from 1965 to 1990 confirmed by documents or photographs. GTA *613274* is another interesting car of which you can find one in North America and one in Europe.

Yes, but ... all this has nothing to do with GTA *613107* here. They name it whataboutism which is a part of NLP speech to deflect the reader's attention from the subject.
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post #38 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Here we are again!
[...]
This time it is ridiculous and perfidy pathetic attempt to depict me as ostracised by others.
[...]
So, I will go on with my fake documents, as long as someone accept them.
P.S. ‘Paolini’s (RIP) archive’ to be honest is not a true archive. It is simply huge number of Alfa, Autodelta (and some other topics), documents (some probably not true), never opened for consultation and destined to Museo Nazionale dell’Automobile, Corso Unità d’Italia 40, 10126 Torino. “So, let it be with Caesar…”
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The photos and data for AR613107 are from Paolini archive [...]
The original papers (scans) are now among unclassified material destined to Turin Automobile Museum, and will be free for consultation after elaboration (I hope).
Mr Pajevic, indeed I can certainly quote your "Here we are again! ".

And as certainly can the word "pathetic" fit the stories you are involved with. Your attempts to ironise for distracting readers from the matter of the discussion when you are caught lying are only worse.

It has been evidence proved several times over the recent past that you post forged documents and photoshopped pictures. I still wonder what purpose it can serve, but nevertheless it keeps muddying waters in every topic you jump in, and it raises a sense of ENOUGH.

Now here is your latest blow.

Can you please comment on this answer I got from the head of the "Museo Nazionale dell’Automobile, Corso Unità d’Italia 40, 10126 Torino", that reads "there's no Paolini archive among the funds hosted at the Documentation Center of the Museum".

The original reads "confermo quanto scritto da Donatella, non è presente nessun archivio Paolini tra i fondi del Centro di Documentazione del Museo."
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post #39 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:40 PM
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Surprised in a way by your unpleasant comment Mr P.I. It certainly will not influence my high opinion on your work, but ab alio exspéctes alteri quod féceris. To quiet your curiosity, though I owe you nothing, I just referred what R.P daughter told me about his last will.
P.S. Looking at my post about 'Paolini archive', I noticed that the word used is 'destined'. What are real intentions of the owner is unknown to me---
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post #40 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by aguirola View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but why would anybody not care about a Senegal GTA?

I, for one would've been just as interested, as for instance, in a GTAm in El Salvador?

Definitely though, El Salvador is less 3rd world than Senegal, or maybe not.

All kidding aside, a GTA, is still a GTA

Regards, Alberto
Well Alberto, to cover your curiosity, just few words about 613760. The car, definitely a GTA, was sold in Italy at Senigallia (someone might search for it at Cap Vert, but is still near Ancona at Adriatic coast). The car produced as Stradale was purchased damaged by Franco Angelini, and when repaired submitted to a technical exam and control for ‘rematriculating’ in Italian PRA. It was officially recognised by factory and after detailed control it got the certificate of authenticity and HTP, and was inscribed in RIAR registry. It all happened in 1991 and what was its further destiny is unknown to me. The expert that controlled the originality and integrity of 613760 was Mr. Fabio Tittarelli from Rome in official RIAR session, and he confirmed with his signature all pertinent data for this car. Just to add. Have no prejudices about African sports car history (think about Angola parenthesis), nor I consider ‘the Third World’ as shadow zone. The fact is that 613760 was not simply there, that could be checked at Centro Documentazione though experts debunked it as ‘FIAT people’ (unreliable?). 613107 seems to me nice discovery and I can’t find any suspicious part of its history. From the photos it looks like highly authentic rests of known car with some history.
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post #41 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 04:47 PM
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Not wanting to get involved, but ...

I think we should all be aware that Italians may view originality different to the English/Americans. This is demonstrated when Ferrari Classiche restore or work on a car. Their view, to my understanding, is they built the car in the first place so can do anything they like and it will be original when they finish, i.e. make a brand new engine. "We" would consider that engine to be a non-original replacement ...

Pete

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post #42 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 05:20 PM
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Well Alberto, to cover your curiosity, just few words about 613760. The car, definitely a GTA, was sold in Italy at Senigallia (someone might search for it at Cap Vert, but is still near Ancona at Adriatic coast). The car produced as Stradale was purchased damaged by Franco Angelini, and when repaired submitted to a technical exam and control for ‘rematriculating’ in Italian PRA. It was officially recognised by factory and after detailed control it got the certificate of authenticity and HTP, and was inscribed in RIAR registry. It all happened in 1991 and what was its further destiny is unknown to me. The expert that controlled the originality and integrity of 613760 was Mr. Fabio Tittarelli from Rome in official RIAR session, and he confirmed with his signature all pertinent data for this car. Just to add. Have no prejudices about African sports car history (think about Angola parenthesis), nor I consider ‘the Third World’ as shadow zone. The fact is that 613760 was not simply there, that could be checked at Centro Documentazione though experts debunked it as ‘FIAT people’ (unreliable?). 613107 seems to me nice discovery and I can’t find any suspicious part of its history. From the photos it looks like highly authentic rests of known car with some history.
Thank you for the information ARGTAReg! So, was the car a Senegal GTA or a Senigallia GTA,

quite simple to confuse like they love to say in the News, Columbia vs. Colombia, when they

mean one or the other haphazardly, and still cannot use 'word'....

Senigallia is a lovely place, Senegal also, but a touch warmer. Of the famous 'Dakar' .

Saluti! Alberto
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post #43 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 05:38 PM
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Not wanting to get involved, but ...

I think we should all be aware that Italians may view originality different to the English/Americans. This is demonstrated when Ferrari Classiche restore or work on a car. Their view, to my understanding, is they built the car in the first place so can do anything they like and it will be original when they finish, i.e. make a brand new engine. "We" would consider that engine to be a non-original replacement ...

Pete
Pete, you are absolutely right! Except when racing, and an engine was blown, Ferrari conveniently procured a 'virgin' and restamped the 'original numbers' , in the 50's and now. Why? Because they could, can and will. Then, it is certified 'original'. No problemo.
I find this a truly practical solution.

At my local AR dealership, in the 70's, they would be blowing engines while racing,
left and right.
Bare blocks were re-stamped with the original numbers, with 'original dies'. Very practical also.

These, are all countries, where Customs bureaucracy was horrid, and taxation worse.

My father in law was the Jaguar dealer where I live, and he brought a D type. One day it was crashed and sent back to the Factory, then the Factory burned down along with
my father in law's D.

Guess what? Jaguar sent back a brand new D type with the same chassis number and engine number. and all was well. Is this an original car, or a fake?
The current USA owner, I am unaware if he knows...

This practice has been going on forever.

Regards, Alberto
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post #44 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 10:06 PM
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"Here is initial “missing part” of the history of AR613107. The car AR 613107, Biancospino 101 (hawthorn white), with black ‘skai’ interior, was delivered to Autodelta in June 1965 and prepared in rally trim together with limited number of other cars. The car was sold in 1966 to Benelux (precisely to Belgium, so no French importation) and was listed as Ecurie Concordia (Racing Team Concordia) car and Georges Hacquin was the principal driver (maybe also owner). The car was raced during 1966 season in Rallye de Lorraine (so French race), Omloop van Vlaanderen, Circuit des Ardennes (in both occasions with Van Huffel as co-driver), 12 H de Oostende, and also in occasion of 2e Bekers van de Toekomst (Zolder), Trofee de Limburg. In none of listed events the car scored significant placements and was also retired in more than one occasion. In 1967 AR 613107 started at Boucles de Spa event but had serious engine damage and was retired. During the year the engine was changed and car sold. I understand that the rest of the history is known to you."

As I wrote GTA *613107* was not even built in June 1965 and was both invoiced by Alfa Romeo and by Autodelta later the same year and not in 1966. Alfa Romeo/Autodelta wrote nothing about Racing Team Concordia but AR Benelux and Georges Hacquin only. Hacquin had some significant national placings with the car, two weeks after the 1967 Boucles de Spa he was class winner and second overall in the EU-Rally.

By the way GTA *613760* was sold to Dakar, Africa, which I located somewhere more south than Ancona. Maybe P. (Pajevic?/Paolini?) could deliver any photograph and/or document of this car before Angelini purchased it in 1990/1991? I do not know what left wrong in the past but the car has no internal structure of a GTA at all.
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post #45 of 49 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 01:52 AM
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The car, definitely a GTA, was sold in Italy at Senigallia (someone might search for it at Cap Vert, but is still near Ancona at Adriatic coast).
Mr Pajevic, let me make sure I understand well your writing: are you implying that the Alfa production and sales registers got confused between "Senegal" and "Senigallia"?


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