GTA’s converted to GTAm in racing - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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GTA’s converted to GTAm in racing

Hello,

New to the bb and had some questions regarding Alfa Giulia GTAs (stepnose) that were later converted to GTAm, with GTAm mechanicals. There are three cars I know of where this happened:

1. The GTA of Mavros who raced for Motor Hellas in Greece who later died in a crash in this car.
2. The GTA of Olivier Chambon. Originally GTA, converted to GTA SA, and then converted again to GTAm in 1970.
3. The GTA of van Rooyen/Chatz. GTA 1900 as raced under van Rooyen and converted to GTAm under Chatz’s ownership with help from Autodelta

First of all, I would like to know what class they would have been able to race in? I am sure Angola and South Africa were different in regards to rules and regulations, so the Chatz GTAm might have had an easier time. I know these cars had to be much lighter in terms of FIA homologation standards, especially the GTA Chambon owned since it was full peraluman. Was there weight added to the cars of Mavros and Chambon (or Chatz for that matter) so they could race as GTAm’s in the correct classification? Were there other GTAs that were converted to GTAm and raced in this period? Also, I once read on here that in Germany they were using GT 1300 Juniors to convert to GTAm ecause they were lighter. If anyone can confirm this, is there photographs of any of these cars and were they done in period or more recently? Lots of questions, but I am hoping some of you on here can help to answer them. I have included pictures of each of the three GTAs that I mentioned for reference.

Regards,
DW
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 06:01 AM
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GTA converted to GTAm

Hello DW Froome,

Welcome to the Alfa BB.
Please use the search button and you will find threads on your questions.
If any questions are left after you had a search, please ask them.

Ciao, Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Hello Zagato_Olaf,

Thank you for your reply. I have searched and reread the threads and other pages here and on the websites where I originally found information on these three Alfa’s. I originally found most of it on here in the GTAm chassis numbers thread and other threads, as well as some other webistes. I have also been in contact with Basil van Rooyen through email about his GTA 1900 that Chatz converted. He included Chatz in when he replied to me with the info he knew, but Chatz has yet to reply. I know these cars raced, but “how” (in terms of weight) I have not been able to find. My original question still remains about them:

Was there weight added to them to allow them to race as GTAm’s or were they racing at close to the same weight as a normal GTA? (I am sure they were a little heavier than a normal GTA with the GTAm mechanicals added, but nowhere near what a GTAm is supposed to weigh, especially concerning the GTA with alu floors.)

Also, I was able to look in the GTAm chassis numbers thread and find what was said about the GT 1300’s used in Germany to convert to GTAm. It was actually something that you wrote in the the definition for a GTAm.
I quote: “Besides that, UlrichGTA told me that in Germany some GT 1300 Juniors (105.30) have been converted to GTAm because the GT 1300 Junior was lighter.” I was, however, not able to find anything else that was said on this particular subject, although I could have overlooked it. I am just curious, and was wondering if there was more info on these GT 1300 Juniors that were converted to GTAm.

I apologize if I have overlooked any of this information when I searched, but I could not find anything more.

Regards,
DW Froome
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Last edited by DW Froome; 01-29-2018 at 04:31 PM.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-11-2019, 12:24 PM
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Hello DW Froome, the answers are in between your texts.

Thank you for your reply. I have searched and reread the threads and other pages here and on the websites where I originally found information on these three Alfa’s. I originally found most of it on here in the GTAm chassis numbers thread and other threads, as well as some other webistes. I have also been in contact with Basil van Rooyen through email about his GTA 1900 that Chatz converted. He included Chatz in when he replied to me with the info he knew, but Chatz has yet to reply. I know these cars raced, but “how” (in terms of weight) I have not been able to find. My original question still remains about them:

Was there weight added to them to allow them to race as GTAm’s or were they racing at close to the same weight as a normal GTA? (I am sure they were a little heavier than a normal GTA with the GTAm mechanicals added, but nowhere near what a GTAm is supposed to weigh, especially concerning the GTA with alu floors.)

Olaf: For me, it wouldn't make sense to transfer a GTA into a GTAm. They are two completely different cars. So for homologation, enough models of for example a 1900 GTA would have to be produced to make it possible to race it in most European countries under FIA regulations or local regulations of FIA supervision. What the rules/possibilities were in for example South Africa, isn't known ro me.

Also, I was able to look in the GTAm chassis numbers thread and find what was said about the GT 1300’s used in Germany to convert to GTAm. It was actually something that you wrote in the the definition for a GTAm.
I quote: “Besides that, UlrichGTA told me that in Germany some GT 1300 Juniors (105.30) have been converted to GTAm because the GT 1300 Junior was lighter.” I was, however, not able to find anything else that was said on this particular subject, although I could have overlooked it. I am just curious, and was wondering if there was more info on these GT 1300 Juniors that were converted to GTAm.

Olaf: That remark was made by a very knowledgable Ulrich. I have no reason to doubt him. If you have, for example, a crashed GTAm and you replace the 1750 GTV shell by a 1300 shell, nothing will go wrong. I have seen GTAm's without a chassisnumber They might be a crashed and replaced shell.

I apologize if I have overlooked any of this information when I searched, but I could not find anything more.

Olaf: No problem DW

Ciao, Olaf]

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 05:45 PM
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Hi DW Froome,
There are a few articles written on GTAm
One titled 'Initial Impact' by Andrew Frankel in the Motorsport magazine pages 81 to 84 some other cars converted into GTAms, sorry I don't have edition details.
and
another titled 'Yellow Peril' by Ed McDonough in Vintage car racer pages 33 to 39, don't have edition details.
It talks about GTAm at the Kyalami 9 hours in South Africa and some other cars converted into GTAms

also have a look at https://historicdb.fia.com/cars/list...ly?search=alfa where the FIA homologation and rules concerning GTAms FIA 1576 Group 2
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...76_group_2.pdf
or
for GTAjr
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...57_group_2.pdf
or
GTj
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...48_group_1.pdf
Cheers Steve

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Froome View Post
Hello,

New to the bb and had some questions regarding Alfa Giulia GTAs (stepnose) that were later converted to GTAm, with GTAm mechanicals. There are three cars I know of where this happened:

1. The GTA of Mavros who raced for Motor Hellas in Greece who later died in a crash in this car.
2. The GTA of Olivier Chambon. Originally GTA, converted to GTA SA, and then converted again to GTAm in 1970.
3. The GTA of van Rooyen/Chatz. GTA 1900 as raced under van Rooyen and converted to GTAm under Chatz’s ownership with help from Autodelta

First of all, I would like to know what class they would have been able to race in? I am sure Angola and South Africa were different in regards to rules and regulations, so the Chatz GTAm might have had an easier time. I know these cars had to be much lighter in terms of FIA homologation standards, especially the GTA Chambon owned since it was full peraluman. Was there weight added to the cars of Mavros and Chambon (or Chatz for that matter) so they could race as GTAm’s in the correct classification? Were there other GTAs that were converted to GTAm and raced in this period? Also, I once read on here that in Germany they were using GT 1300 Juniors to convert to GTAm ecause they were lighter. If anyone can confirm this, is there photographs of any of these cars and were they done in period or more recently? Lots of questions, but I am hoping some of you on here can help to answer them. I have included pictures of each of the three GTAs that I mentioned for reference.

Regards,
DW
The GTA full alloy body homologated as GTA Junior, limited in displacement and weight by prescriptions from Art. 253, could be prepared claiming Art. 253 comma Q, and Art 256 / Rule for changing from one group to another and authorized amalgamation of groups/ in allowed but declared changes that suits regulations that follows:

FIA Art.282 /N.B./

NB: AMALGAMATION OF GROUPS 5 AND 6
Groups 5 and 6 will be amalgamated as from 1st January 1972, into a single
group called: Sport Cars—Group 5 (without minimum production).
Definition: Competition cars especially manufactured for speed or long-
distance races on closed circuits. Their use on open roads may however be foreseen
and, in that case, the cars must include all elements normally provided and
legally required for vehicles using public roads.
General specifications: These cars should comply with the general prescriptions
concerning cars of categories A and B (see Art. 253), except as regards the
following points:
a) the luggage trunk is optional (Art. 253 h),
b) the spare-wheel is optional (Art. 253 k),
c) the hood is optional (Art. 253 e),
d) In the case of an open car, the windshield and the transparent parts of the
door are optional; however, if they are provided for, their dimensions are
free (if no windshield is provided for, windshield-wipers are not compulsory)
e) in the case of an open car, the opening delimiting the passengers' compartment
must be symmetrical about the lengthwise center-line of the car.
Besides, it is specified that the Appendix J distinguishes only an entirely open
car, with the passenger’s and the driver’s seats uncovered, and entirely closed car.
Safety Rules: See Art. 253, 272 and 273.

In base of prescribed regulation, GTA lightweight body with 2000 cc prepared engine was allowed to start and compete in all FIA or FIA covered events with Group 5 or ‘open inscription’ foreseen. It is clear that GTA cars listed in this tread were used as group 5 and raced in events where the group 5 was allowed, without any weight compensation or ballast onboard, or any other handicap expected.

P.S. One of the GTA cars mentioned, 613015 was ex VDS GTA transformed in GTA SA in ’67, from 1972 owned by Oliver Chambon and converted in 2000 cc engine version. The car was sold to Mr. Ulrich Baumgarten, fine and true expert in all GTAs, sometimes present in this forum. Nobody better than him could explain the story of that car
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 02:55 PM
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Hi DW Froome,
You overlooking one important point, a GTAm is a specific homologated model, a GTA is another model. You cannot 'convert' a GTA 'into' a GTAm. Added stripes on a horse don't make a zebra!!
What you can do is make a wide-body GTA, fit a larger engine to a GTA, update the wheels & brakes on a GTA, etc, etc.
BUT, IT STILL REMAINS A MODIFIED GTA. Probably the ultimate GTA granted.
Why people insist calling any GT105 with the wide fenders fitted by the GTAm tag is beyond me. I do wish a GTAm had all the alloy body panels, but it does not, it is steel & heavier unfortunately.
As stated by ARGTAReg, uprated/modified GTAs did run in Gp5 & 6 classes in the mid 70s, but these were very free & open catagories that morphed into sports proto types, way beyond the model limits of a GTA or GTAm.
Even Ed Mcdonough conceded this basic oversight after his erroneous 'Yellow Peril" article. I spoke at length to him over lunch at Philip Island & his knowledge of GTA/GTAm at that time was just the very basics. It was just another case of adding more confusion/misconceptions to the subject & circulated widely unfortunately.
Regards,
Vince.

Last edited by vsharp; 01-18-2019 at 03:00 PM. Reason: addition
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 11:42 PM
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Here is one of the articles.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-19-2019, 03:07 AM
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Thanks for that article Steve, It's been a while since I read that one. It goes to show sometimes just how little research motoring journalists put into their work before committing it to print.
If he had bothered to even research or read the basics of a GTAm & its homologation details, he should have known that it was required to be a steel bodied car & have the 8 valve narrow angle engine, just to mention the absolute basics.
To have such journalistic incompetence in such a reputable publication does not surprise me with some of the other things one reads & the errors constantly pointed out by readers letters to the editor.
If Alfa was allowed by the rules to just drop a full 2000cc engine into a GTA & race it in the ETTC they would have, but the that was NOT the case & the 1750 based steel body GTAm car was the result. Wide GTAs continued to compete in the ETCC in the 1300 class, which is most likely the step-nose cars you see in the pictures.
In any case the Super GTA as we might call it as tested in that article must be the absolute ultimate weapon in the 105 series & a brilliant car to drive. I think this type of super-modified car would be the sort of thing used later when the rules had more freedoms & became Gp5 & 6.
Regards,
Vince.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-19-2019, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsharp View Post
Hi DW Froome,
You overlooking one important point, a GTAm is a specific homologated model, a GTA is another model. You cannot 'convert' a GTA 'into' a GTAm. Added stripes on a horse don't make a zebra!!
What you can do is make a wide-body GTA, fit a larger engine to a GTA, update the wheels & brakes on a GTA, etc, etc.
BUT, IT STILL REMAINS A MODIFIED GTA. Probably the ultimate GTA granted.
Why people insist calling any GT105 with the wide fenders fitted by the GTAm tag is beyond me. I do wish a GTAm had all the alloy body panels, but it does not, it is steel & heavier unfortunately.
As stated by ARGTAReg, uprated/modified GTAs did run in Gp5 & 6 classes in the mid 70s, but these were very free & open catagories that morphed into sports proto types, way beyond the model limits of a GTA or GTAm.
Even Ed Mcdonough conceded this basic oversight after his erroneous 'Yellow Peril" article. I spoke at length to him over lunch at Philip Island & his knowledge of GTA/GTAm at that time was just the very basics. It was just another case of adding more confusion/misconceptions to the subject & circulated widely unfortunately.
Regards,
Vince.
Well said Vince and correct in my opinion. What these unknowing authors here and elsewhere might say is "converted toward GTAm specification" or as happened to some GTAs, "converted toward GTAj wide body specification".

Can you steer me to the McDonough article or is it the one Steve provided?

Ciao

Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
1970 Giulia Super (CDN Spec)
1976 1600 GTj (Italian Spec)
1966 Harley Sprint (Aermacchi) 250
2000 Catalina 320, Hull #765 Northern Dream
2001 BMW Z3 3.0i

Last edited by kengta; 01-19-2019 at 03:33 AM.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-19-2019, 03:46 AM
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Hi Ken,
I have it somewhere, but so many magazines.......!
Perhaps Steve might have the McDonough article handy? In any case I think it is the same yellow 16v GTA from memory.
Regards,
Vince.
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