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post #61 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borzacchini Jr View Post
Famous is his 16V 1300 minored to 1100 and equipped with Garret turbine that produced 250 HP and was installed in GTAJ Gr.5 known as “Bomber” because of sound that produced during races.
Dear Borzacchini, please be more careful when describing your pictures. First you´ve tried to let us believe a standard GTA-2v twin plug head could be a 4v-head (4v heads usually do not require twin plugs any more....the late FIAT TS/"AR" system is much more a marketing idea than technical requirement); now you´re showing us a totally standard 75type style head installation trying to convince us to be a 4v-head.

This engine NEVER ever is a 4v turbo engine with whatever displacement you talk about; it looks like a 2v-TS from an AR 75 TS with a retro-fit turbocharger. Intake m/fold and everything at this side look very, very standard equipment from a Series IV Spider. Count the numbers of plug leads so you should believe a 4v head could get into troubles fitting two plugs and 4 valves into one c/chamber. For which reason this should have happened is secondary also; especially regarding the fact Angellini heads always featured sophisticated design work very comparable to Cosworth heads. If only AD would have cloned the Angellini style....
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post #62 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 04:30 AM
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I would quite like to know which foundry in the UK was commissioned by Angelini for his heads. Makes me wonder if the patterns still exist ....

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to all parts I have advertised on the BB so far. Plenty more! Just ask.
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post #63 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 12:18 PM
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Off topic

Hello members,

Please start a seperate thread if you want to talk more about Angelini engines/cylinderheads and other interesting stuff. We are discussing a "Giulia Sprint GTAm Prototype" here.

Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-26-2014 at 03:29 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #64 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 02:44 PM
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Angelini

Dear hunttheshunt, the fault is not mine but of Giorgio Marzolla that wrote the wrong book(about Angelini) and Stefano d’Amico and RIAR that have published it. For major details see the part Angelini, page 3, post N°40, in this forum where you could find the same photo in color. In fact, the data to correct is that it was not 1300 minored to 1100, but 2000 minored to 1100 and equipped with Garrett building up to 340 HP (Marzolla stated). Also for TS 4V, yes , Angelini did 1600 engine for Giulio De Angelis for his 3P racing boat, and also Chiti has made one experimental 1600 TS 16V that never entered in production. Here is address of Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo: R.I.A.R. Presso Alfa Romeo-Automobilismo Storico-Centro Direzionale-20020 Arese (Mi); fax. +39 029315564, so you can write to them, with request to correct the error in their book. The error about 2V instead of 4V head is mine and I have already explained it. And to finish, I have never tried to convince anyone in anything. I couldn’t care less
Warning! The photos below might be fake ones as I don’t know the source, but I found them in this form
P.S. Olaf you are abloslutely right. The only question is if you really consider that car GT Am? I tought that ortodox purist like you, accepts only 105.51 and in extreme neccessity 105.44
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post #65 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 11:31 AM
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GT Am

Hi Olaf, just to return to the topic. I was thinking about the part of your analyses where is indicated the possibility that “only three engines were produced it this configuration”. Well, though I didn’t understand the meaning of “this configuration” (1.5 l. displacement ? or 16V ? or 1.5 l. with 16V?) there are some questions about that engine and its later use in Autodelta. Having in mind the fact that majority of 3 Point racing boats were Alfa Romeo powered (about 80%) and that year production was ca.30 units from all builders (in the ‘70ties) remain the number of approximately 10-15 for 1.5 l. class using AR Giulia 1600 minored to 1500. As certainly more than three declared 1500 GTA engine (Abbate, Celli, Molinari, Lucini & Frigerio,Telaroli…), seems that number of 3 produced engines remain restrictive and only if particular engine in our topic was different from others in its architecture, that number could be considered. Few engines for boat racing were described as 4V for cylinder so it was not rarity. Who produced them if not Autodelta? Was it AR Centro Sperimentazioni of other private tuners as Monzeglio or Conrero? As those engines were requested it is logic that Autodelta got its interest in producing them. In those years I was pretty often in Chiti’s company but he never talk about business or professional quests and sincerely, I have never heard about nautical version of Giulia engine then. Anyhow, I think that we should reconsider the possible number of produced engines with 1.5 l. with or without 16V head.
About 603xxx. I have no reason to doubt the GTV6SA story about that car, and though I have never seen old material used in experimental vehicles, I accept his version (or the one that previous owner told to him). For me it is strange that large fenders (welded!) on a steel body were used before the idea of widened body matured in Autodelta. The story of stronger body is out of question as SA engine was put in peraluman 1300 body without serious problems (if not space). If it was later, than 1750-2000 engine was reality and 1500 on FIA 13 wheels, remain strange experiment (with 16V?!). But everything is possible. And for the end the question of name. It is clear that only the 105.51 injection version for US market, deriving from EU 105.44 could be called GT Am(erica), and so, any previous experimental model should be called in different way. The first two 2000 engine cars were present in Tour De Corse, (1970, with Lucas and not SPICA injection in that occasion), build on 1300 bodies with fenders but different from later models. So, even this part of the story is unusual, as 603xxx presents already mature form of fenders and 13’’ wheels (those on Tour De Corse were 14’’). Again, if we accept the 603xxx as Autodelta experimental machine, we must find another name for it. As for the history, only 105.51 with few 105.44 are considered GT Am. The rest are accepted cars that match the standards for homologation. I do agree that GT Am is just a convenience and not a specific model, but at least, we have to remain fair to its origins.
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post #66 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 02:40 PM
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About 1 of 5 GTA's now in existance was ORIGINAL, 4 of 5 are copy, later rebuild, evocation, and other...
Some mounth ago I saw a GTA all alluminium body 8 spark, lot of original old spares, but... but... more and more the win and document say it's a GTA original... but but..
the original car with same win number was outside Italy since 1970's.... The car was sold in France with Italian papers say it's a 105.32 with 613xxx win and engine 00502 A...
The biggest fake ever seen!!!
Have a good luck finding a GTA...
Regards
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post #67 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-27-2014, 08:20 PM
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Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borzacchini Jr View Post
Hi Olaf, just to return to the topic. I was thinking about the part of your analyses where is indicated the possibility that “only three engines were produced it this configuration”. Well, though I didn’t understand the meaning of “this configuration” (1.5 l. displacement ? or 16V ? or 1.5 l. with 16V?) there are some questions about that engine and its later use in Autodelta. Having in mind the fact that majority of 3 Point racing boats were Alfa Romeo powered (about 80%) and that year production was ca.30 units from all builders (in the ‘70ties) remain the number of approximately 10-15 for 1.5 l. class using AR Giulia 1600 minored to 1500. As certainly more than three declared 1500 GTA engine (Abbate, Celli, Molinari, Lucini & Frigerio,Telaroli…), seems that number of 3 produced engines remain restrictive and only if particular engine in our topic was different from others in its architecture, that number could be considered. Few engines for boat racing were described as 4V for cylinder so it was not rarity. Who produced them if not Autodelta? Was it AR Centro Sperimentazioni of other private tuners as Monzeglio or Conrero? As those engines were requested it is logic that Autodelta got its interest in producing them. In those years I was pretty often in Chiti’s company but he never talk about business or professional quests and sincerely, I have never heard about nautical version of Giulia engine then. Anyhow, I think that we should reconsider the possible number of produced engines with 1.5 l. with or without 16V head.
About 603xxx. I have no reason to doubt the GTV6SA story about that car, and though I have never seen old material used in experimental vehicles, I accept his version (or the one that previous owner told to him). For me it is strange that large fenders (welded!) on a steel body were used before the idea of widened body matured in Autodelta. The story of stronger body is out of question as SA engine was put in peraluman 1300 body without serious problems (if not space). If it was later, than 1750-2000 engine was reality and 1500 on FIA 13 wheels, remain strange experiment (with 16V?!). But everything is possible. And for the end the question of name. It is clear that only the 105.51 injection version for US market, deriving from EU 105.44 could be called GT Am(erica), and so, any previous experimental model should be called in different way. The first two 2000 engine cars were present in Tour De Corse, (1970, with Lucas and not SPICA injection in that occasion), build on 1300 bodies with fenders but different from later models. So, even this part of the story is unusual, as 603xxx presents already mature form of fenders and 13’’ wheels (those on Tour De Corse were 14’’). Again, if we accept the 603xxx as Autodelta experimental machine, we must find another name for it. As for the history, only 105.51 with few 105.44 are considered GT Am. The rest are accepted cars that match the standards for homologation. I do agree that GT Am is just a convenience and not a specific model, but at least, we have to remain fair to its origins.
Hello Borzacchini Jr,

Yes, a better title for the car would be "Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione". But as the thread is called "Giulia Sprint GTAm Prototype", I would like to refer to that, when we are talking about this thread. Otherwise people will not find the thread although the title "Giulia Sprint GT 1500 16V Iniezione" fits better in my opinion.

About the three engines; that is what my source "Alleggerita" says about this specific 1500cc 16V Iniezione. The source doesn't specify 1500cc engines with other configurations like carburettors instead of fuel injection/8V instead of 16V/wide cylinderheads instead of narrow heads. I have seen boat engines with that kind of configurations on several occasions.

Ciao, Olaf
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post #68 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-29-2014, 10:10 AM
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I would quite like to know which foundry in the UK was commissioned by Angelini for his heads. Makes me wonder if the patterns still exist ....
i seem to recall the patterns are here in sunny socal...
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