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post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 09:39 AM
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16V

Dear Olaf, though the photo of the engine head is really bad one, the head in question contains still only four cylinders and is 4 valve per cylinder of HC (hemispherical) type, seen from “lato scarico”, with ” condotti imbussolati” (I can’t translate these terms as my English isn’t good enough for that). And yes, it is twin spark you are right. It was part of experimental engines produced in small series and some of them used in boat racing in its 1500 ccm version (the one in photo is 1600 ccm). Among few things that I can describe exactly are also Giulia engine parts, believe me… Good link that you have posted, and describes well some of phenomena connected to GTA world. People sometimes forget that Autodelta was a real factory (small one but factory) and that almost all experiments were done with new material and well documented. This documents are lost in part in continuous transfers after the closure in 1985 (though the factory was out of game from 1983), but almost everything is still well known, and stories as the one that you have pointed are mainly the product of fantasy.
Here are the 2V (80°) 1600 GTA head from the same angle, and ex Autodelta factory as it is today (structure is still owned by AR)
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post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 10:01 AM
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errata corrige

Sorry Olaf, I beg your pardon. Looking again the photo I have realized that in fact it is only bad reflex that made me convinced that it was double aperture for IMB valves. My eyes start playing bad jokes but it is consequence of my young age. So yes it is only 8 valves bad photo cylinder head of "common" GTA
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post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 10:08 AM
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There are some pics of the type of head that is in this car in the thread below:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-...ve-engine.html

The casting for the different engine capacities is identical part from the combustion chamber size/location.
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post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by la_strega_nera View Post
I have no basis, but I can't help but think that this is a case of someone found a 16valve racing boat motor and jammed it into the closest thing to a GTA they had at the time... See also the Angelini 16valver (cooling layout suggests it's a single seater race car head. F2?) that's been put into a steel bodied GT more recently in the US.

A 64 GT is certainly a couple of years older than the lucas flat slide injection AFAIK.
Yep ...
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post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 12:41 PM
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What I don't understand if Autodelta had so many 4 valve heads they made for boat racing why didn't they make a few GTA's or even GTV's with this head so they could homologate it for racing?

Doesn't make sense ...
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post #51 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 05:45 PM
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Number of cars for homologation in group 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
What I don't understand if Autodelta had so many 4 valve heads they made for boat racing why didn't they make a few GTA's or even GTV's with this head so they could homologate it for racing?

Doesn't make sense ...
Pete
Hello Pete,

Alfa Romeo / Autodelta would have had to produce 1000 units of 16V cars to meet the homologation requirements for Group 2.

Ciao, Olaf
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post #52 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 06:08 PM
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Not all prototypes or experimental developments make it into production. Take for example the Aluminium bodied Alfetta GT 3000. due to the cessation of the Montreal and limited supply of Montreal based engines and the need to produce the required numbers for homologation only 2 protoypes were ever completed. This only serves to illustrate the point that Autodelta only made 2 of the 1500cc 16 V in this configuration as prototypes to the GTAm, which in itself is based on the steel shell of the 105 1750.
In trying to establish more information about this topic , we don't need 'FKA's" who have no knowledge about this topic throwing their 5 cents worth and denigrating this topic. I wouldn't be surprised that many on this forum weren't even born then, let alone know what happened during this era.
You only need to look at the 75TS engine. Though Alfa had experience with the GTAm narrow angle big valve engine, when it came to production the TS engine is not as efficient as the earler GTAm version which has better valve angles and inlet tract for more efficient flow and power. Prior to the production of the TS engine Alfa had experimented with 16V as well as a TS engine with Reed valves on the inlet for better lamina flow, but despite this only the TS was put into production. The 16V engines and 16V TS engines didn't appear until the front wheel drive cars.one mus'nt forget that in the 60's and 70' s Alfa was still a State owned company so there was a lot of internal politics as well as Politics amongst rival competitor organisations influencing supplies of certain components. Even in Gr. 2 according to Fusis book only 40 GTAm's were ever built. Those preparing cars for historic racing , how often do you see a Historic GTAm running today with the proper homologated items such as Narrow angle big valve head , guillotine slide injection using Lucas or Spica pumps.- answer not many. apart from a few and you can count the numbers on one hand .most have repros heads or are running on carburettors or are running the wide angle head!Also during that era ,heads were sand cast, not pressure cast like modern Ferarris and according to my Autodelta resources only 1 out of 3 casting made it to production as the other were to porous or had other defects. This is one of the reason that there were not too many 16 Valve heads. Have any of the forum here ever assembled a GTAm head let alone the complexity of a Autodelta !16V head. Those who have will know what I mean. On top of all his , Autodelta's focus wasn't only on touring cars , but sports cars (Tipo 33) and later concentrating on returning to F1
Also during the earlier GTA days the twin plug head was a wide angle unit, the later GTAm and 16V ones are all "narrow angle".
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post #53 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 09:28 PM
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Hi GTV6A

Mixing so many different subjects make your comments hard to follow....

Mentioning " when it came to production the TS engine is not as efficient as the earlier GTAm engine...etc etc" suggests this was a backward step for Alfa; yet some lines later you state "...has anyone...ever assembled a GTAm head or....16V" may suggest why the latter were never put into series production!

Government owned or not Alfa was a very different company in the `60s to the `70s and `80s and many factors need to be put in context.

I find it odd that a 1964 Alfa/bodyshell is left lying around to be converted in 1968, at the earliest, into a wide bodied racer, then left a few years until the 16 engine appeared.

The chronology seems odd to me, and the idea that Alfa would use a 1964 steel bodied car for this powerful engine, a trifle far fetched.

Period fotos would help as would some sort of history file....

Richard
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post #54 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 05:08 AM
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Hi GTV6SA

This is probably not the place to discuss racing GTAs/GTAms etc. but from my, albeit limited experience of Italian hill climbs, the competition run new, i.e. brand new, Lotus 26Rs, and Lotus Cortinas, with all the latest technology, so it is hardly surprising that repro heads/engines are used in Alfas.

I, too would run a complete, 100% replica if I felt it would improve my times!

Richard
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post #55 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 01:01 PM
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origin of the engine of AR 603142

Hello members,

Concerning AR 603142, here is some info on the origin of the engine.
I will add a list of displacements with bore and stroke later.

Developments at Autodelta:
Source: Chapter “Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines” in the book “Alleggerita” by Tony Adriaensens, 1st edition from 1994

First of all, this chapter contains a photograph of Giulia Sprint GTA, chassisnumber AR 613124 (Anders Ericsson) with an 16 valve engine and a plenum (airbox) that looks a lot like the engine and airbox on AR 6130124. A date is not mentioned.
Our fellow member "Alleggerita" told us that he took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.
See 1600F2 in 1967 and Marino 91” in 1970.

The Original list has been removed in favour of a more complete list.
You can find that list here:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-...ml#post5140833


Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-29-2014 at 05:00 AM. Reason: Additional info
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post #56 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 01:40 PM
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I took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.

This was one the later cars that Haehn campaigned and that he then ran himself again in early Historic Racing, if I remember correctly, sometimes towing it with his Villa d'Este Coupe.

When I talked to him at the time, he actually mentioned that that type of engine was also run with long stacks - like the Marine engines - that required the side of the inner fender to be cut out with air being drawn from the wheel well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagato_Olaf View Post
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Georgia"]Hello members,


Developments at Autodelta:
Source: Chapter “Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines” in the book “Alleggerita” by Tony Adriaensens, 1st edition from 1994

First of all, this chapter contains a photograph of Giulia Sprint GTA, chassisnumber AR 613124 (Anders Ericsson) with an 16 valve engine and a plenum (airbox) that looks a lot like the engine and airbox on AR 6130124. A date is not mentioned. The comment with the picture reads that this could be a 1300 16 valve or a 1600F2 (16 valve) engine. See 1600F2 in 1967 and Marino 91” in 1970.
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post #57 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 02:49 PM
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Thanks for the info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleggerita View Post
I took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.

This was one the later cars that Haehn campaigned and that he then ran himself again in early Historic Racing, if I remember correctly, sometimes towing it with his Villa d'Este Coupe.

When I talked to him at the time, he actually mentioned that that type of engine was also run with long stacks - like the Marine engines - that required the side of the inner fender to be cut out with air being drawn from the wheel well.
Hello Alleggerita & members,

Thanks for the info, Alleggerita!


To all our members;

Based on the info in the 1st edition of "Alleggerita", the 1500cc Marino engine was developed in 1970. If the engine in AR 603142 is indeed a 1500cc Marino engine, you can draw your own conclusion.

What we have to double check is the development date of the 1500cc Marino 91" engine from another source and the verification that the engine in AR 603142 is indeed a 1500cc Marino 91" engine.

By the way, the 1500cc Marino 91" engine is a special breed because probably only three units were produced.

Ciao, Olaf
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post #58 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-25-2014, 02:57 PM
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16V Angelini

Talking about 16V engines derivate from Giulia 105, without considering the only really well operating one that was Franco Angelini’s 1300 and 1600 16V would be serious injustice. Self made Roman ingenious car builder with sense for “right” solution, has produced 16 valve engines used both, in car and boat competitions. Without homologation possibilities for group 2, his engines were used only in Gr.5 and hill climb, producing respectively 184 HP in 1300, and 220 HP in 1600 version. The fact is that Angelini has made his engines before Autodelta tested its 1300 16V testa stretta. Angelini’s engines were single spark versions and also twin spark variant for Giulio De Angelis 3P racing boat, that won Italian and also Europian championship producing 174 HP at 8500/8800 revs. As GTV6SA pointed correctly, the sand casts were unreliable and that’s why Angelini ordered in Great Britain some 25 heads whose casting was much better, as he couldn’t find private producer in Italy to match his quality requests. He has also installed turbo chargers on some of his engines. Famous is his 16V 1300 minored to 1100 and equipped with Garret turbine that produced 250 HP and was installed in GTAJ Gr.5 known as “Bomber” because of sound that produced during races. It was clear that Franco Angelini has discovered successful formula for 4V head as his engines worked without problems. The answer might be in his almost maniacal need for precision in everything, as he produced himself each part of the engine and then assembled all parts in the external shells that were Autodelta provenience. That made his engines Swiss watches alike. Chiti had excellent opinion about Angelini and his work, though he preferred Conrero as tuner. The image of “Sor Franco” as “his boys” (Giunti, Rinaldi, Pelatelli, Francisci, Rampa, Verna, Radicella and many others) used to call him, with “cicchetto” (small manual pump with fuel to start injection engine when it is still cold) is familiar to anyone that has visited circuits of that period. He was like close parent to all his pilots, rugged in manners but deeply human and ready to finish each contest in tavern with glass of good vine from “Castelli”…
1600 16V GTA engine (version for single seater F car)
1100 16V GTA Garret turbine equipped engine
Giulio De Angelis 3P boat with 1600 GTA engine
Gino Rampa’s 1600 Gr.5 Silhouette GTA
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post #59 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 03:33 AM
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Summary of what we know up to now about the Giulia Sprint GTAm prototype

Dear members,


Here is a summary of what we know up to now.

Please bare with me, first of all I am stating the facts that we have verified with the sources mentioned. Double checking is mentioned if necessary.

Verified facts about the car:
A Giulia Sprint GT (105.02) with chassisnumber AR 603142 from 1964 carries an Alfa Romeo engine with a “hanging oilfilter”, a 16 valve head with a waterpassage on the exhaust side, single plug ingnition, a Lucas sliding throttle fuel injection with a metal plenum. The bodyshell is a “widebody” version with roll cage without a slittone rear suspension. The car has the single brake booster (for a car with standing pedals). The lettering on the boodlid says 1.5 16V.

The chassis number AR 603142 was manufactured on the 27th April 1964 and was sold on the 30th April 1964 in Milan, Italy. The body colour of this Giulia Sprint GT was Alfa red and it had a blue interior.

I translated the RIAR (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) document from 1987 with internet so that we all can read it. The text says:

"With reference to your question, we are pleased to inform you that the Technical RIAR Board has reviewed the documentation sent to us and gave permission(?) for the approval of this/your? car.
Therefore, we send the nameplate marked no 258; approval for the engine only.
We remind you that the cost of any such plate is 50,000 (lire?). Please kindly sent the money by check or money order.
With the most cordial greetings,"

This car was offered at auction on the 18th of January 2014 by Coys with an estimate of 110K – 130K Euro’s. The car was sold for 87K Euro’s.

The book "Alleggerita" (1st edition from 1994) mentions a number of developments of which one was:

1500 Marino 91” – 16 valve
Designed and constructed by Autodelta in 1970
Displacement is 1496,8 cc bore x stroke 83,4 x 68,5 compression ratio not mentioned
Monosleeve, small cilinderhead, 16 valve, ?? injection, slide throttle, single plug ignition
Approx 180 bhp at 8000 rpm bench tested ??
Probably only three engines made
Pictures from Francesco Tavoletti show this engine



Opinion:
If the engine in the car is indeed a 1500cc Marino 91" (that has to be double checked) and if indeed Autodelta designed and developed this 1500cc Marino 91" engine in 1970 (it would be good to verify this through a second source) it is unlikely that AR 603142 Quote "was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system" Unquote as Coys states in the text (see below). That is because the GTAm car and engine were developed before 1970.

And because of the sequence in time (1500cc Marino 91" designed and developed in 1970) it is unlikely that Quote "A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA" Unquote because the GTA was first shown at the RAI autoshow in February of 1965 and thus designed and developed before that date.

Here is the complete text Coys used for this car


Quote ”Estimate: €110,000 - €130,000
In 1962, the successor for the very popular Giulietta series was introduced. This car was the Alfa Romeo Giulia, internally called the “Series 105”. The coupé of the 105 series, used the shortened floor pan from the Giulia Berlina and was designed by Bertone.

At the time, Alfa was very active in Motor sport. Autodelta , the racing division of Alfa, developed a car for competition that closely resembled to the road going model. These cars were named GTA instead of GT, the 'A' standing for “Alleggerita”, Italian for lightweight. The GTA was produced first in 1965 as a 1600 (1570 cc) and later as a 1300 Junior version. The GTA auto mobiles were also manufactured in either street (Stradale) or pure race (Corsa) trim.
The GTA had aluminium outer body panels instead of steel, (the inner steel panels were also of thinner gauge, the inner and outer panels were bonded and pop-riveted together), magnesium alloy wheels, clear plastic side windows, an aluminium rear upper control arm, different door handles and quarter window mechanisms, and lightweight interior trim. The engine had a new double ignition cylinder head (called twin plug, later in the eighties the system was called twin spark) cylinder head with a Marelli distributor from a Ferrari Dino, 45mm carburettors instead of 40mm and magnesium camshaft cover, sump, timing cover and bell housing. The transmission gear ratios were closer than standard and the gears were machined for lightness and quicker shifting. In full race form this engine could produce up to 170 hp. The 1600 GTA did not have a brake booster and had a thicker radiator than the standard vehicle. For homologation 500 cars were made for racing and road use.

The car in our auction is a rather special one, it is basically a Giulia Sprint GT but it was heavily modified in period to race specification just as the the forthcoming GTA´s was. It was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system.

This engine was very powerful, producing 208 bhp as opposed to the later GTAm´engines that produced 150- 160 bhp. It proved too expensive for Autodelta who did all the development work and who opted for the GTAm s twin spark design instead. This prototype engine was, according to the vendor, later used in a World endurance speed boat record attempts by boat maker Molinari.

A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA and this prototype´s mechanical specifications are similar to that of the quickest race prepared GTA´s, it also has a shorter ratio gearbox. This car is an important part of post-war Alfa Romeo history and is also certified by Registro Alfa Romeo.” Unquote.

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-26-2014 at 03:42 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #60 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 03:44 AM
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There are no 16v-heads; the technical term is always directed by the number of valve per cylinder unit - so we´re talking about 2v or 4v-heads. Because an 8cyl-2v-engine also has 16 valves as summa summarum !
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