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post #31 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 08:29 AM
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Change in capacity classes?

Hello GTV6SA,


You talk about a change in capacity classes that made the Giulia Sprint GT 1500cc 16V Iniezione obsolete.
Can you tell us when this change in capacity classes took place?

I checked the capacity classes in the FIA Appendix J from 1961, here is the link:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/4251EDE8D24B2A8DC1257A40002C726A/$FILE/Appendix%20J%20-%201961%20ANG.pdf

I did the same for the capacity classes in the The FIA Appendix J from 1964:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/55426767AE6F511BC1257A4100482CA8/$FILE/1964_1965%20Annexe%20J%20de%20la%20FIA%20(version% 20complète_français).pdf

Again the capacity classes in the The FIA Appendix J from 1965:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C1DF875646CF7838C1257A40002EE4BB/$FILE/Appendix%20J%20-%201965%20ENG.pdf

If this information is correct, there was no change in the capacity classes during the period from 1961 onwards.

All the info that I used can be found here:
FIA HISTORIC APPENDICES J - OF THE PERIOD

Meanwhile, I checked this thread about 16V engines:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-...ve-engine.html

And it seems this engine was discussed before:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-...at-engine.html

Alfaholics also had experience with a special 16V engine:
Car Stripped & Parts Catalogued | Classic Alfa Romeo spare parts and accessories

Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-21-2014 at 07:41 AM. Reason: 16V threads added
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post #32 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 10:40 AM
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Do we know anything about the suspension? Or race History if any? What about the chassis build date. My Sprint GT 606153, has a build date of July 31, 1964 so this one could be earlier. What does that RIAR document translate to and what is its importance if any?

Value is about the sum of the parts, in the absence of significant documentation of provenance. And Auto Delta Prova sheets would be good too.

IMHO


Ken

Ken Geiger, Toronto
1965 GTA, RHD, Stradale
ex- 1965 GTA, RHD, Corsa, Trans/Am 66-72
1964 Sprint GT, B-Sedan in 70's
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post #33 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-20-2014, 12:07 PM
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Translation of the RIAR document

Dear members,

I translated the RIAR (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) document with internet so that we all can read it. The text says:

"With reference to your question, we are pleased to inform you that the Technical RIAR Board has reviewed the documentation sent to us and gave permission(?) for the approval of this/your? car.
Therefore, we send the nameplate marked no 258; approval for the engine only.
We remind you that the cost of any such plate is 50,000 (lire?). Please kindly sent the money by check or money order.
With the most cordial greetings,"


So in 1987, the RIAR only registered and approved the engine, not the complete car. What was the reason for that and what is the value/authority of such a registration.

Some other questions":
First the "what":
Is this an authentic Autodelta engine and can that be backed up by documentation or other means? If not, what is it? If yes, was this engine first used in a or in this car (and later used as a 1500cc Marine 16V Iniezione engine in a powerboat) or was it a later road conversion of the initial 1500cc Marine 16V Iniezione engine? Maybe the development was done side by side or otherwise? And what about other possibilities? How does chassis AR 603142 fit in?

Then the "when". When was this engine fitted to AR 603142? What was the sequence of events in terms of time?

Who did this work? And where was it done?

There is more to learn.


Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-20-2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Additional info
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post #34 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-21-2014, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GTV6SA View Post
This car will only increase in value due to its rarity especially as its configuration is in original Autodelta trim not "add ons"as mentioned above. This 1.5 litre 16V engine had an output of 196 hp which in a 1600 shell is very powerful for the era.I'm sure people do not realise its true value yet. I"ve know of the existence of this car for more than 20 years and it has been hidden away from the public.
I am but an amateur but your post seems to suggest that you are convinced that this is really one of the two prototypes - is this the case?

If it is indeed the real deal, I still find it strange that it appears at auction at the last minute.......
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post #35 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-21-2014, 02:48 AM
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Photograph of the rear suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by kengta View Post
Do we know anything about the suspension? Or race History if any? What about the chassis build date. My Sprint GT 606153, has a build date of July 31, 1964 so this one could be earlier. What does that RIAR document translate to and what is its importance if any?

Value is about the sum of the parts, in the absence of significant documentation of provenance. And Auto Delta Prova sheets would be good too.

IMHO


Ken
Hello Ken,

Here is a photograph of the rear suspension of AR 603142.

Ciao, Olaf
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post #36 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-21-2014, 01:34 PM
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What do we know sofar?

Dear members, so what do we know sofar?

Please bare with me, first of all I am stating the facts that we have verified.
Next are the things that one of our members has offered as information without saying that this info is right or wrong, just that it needs to be verified. If you have anything to add to the facts or the “offered information”, please do so.

Verified facts about the car:
A Giulia Sprint GT with chassisnumber AR 603142 from 1964 carries an Alfa Romeo engine with a “hanging oilfilter”, a 16 valve head with a waterpassage on the exhaust side, single plug ingnition, a Lucas sliding throttle fuel injection with a metal plenum. The bodyshell is a “widebody” version with roll cage without a slittone rear suspension. The car has the single brake booster (for a car with standing pedals).
The Technical Board of the Registro Italiano has reviewed the documentation of this car that was sent to them. It is not known if they inspected the car itself. They gave “approval for the engine only” with nameplate No. 258 in 1987.
This car was offered at auction on the 18th of January 2014 by Coys with an estimate of 110K – 130K Euro’s. The car was sold for 87K Euro’s.
GTV6SA took pictures of the same car when it was in a private collection.
We know that Autodelta had developed a 1500cc “Marine” engine for motorboat racing. It is mentioned in the first edition of “Alleggerita”. Please let someone check the page as I am not able to get to my first edition of “Alleggerita”.

Opinions and things that need verification:
The engine displacement hasn’t been verified. The text of Coys doesn’t mention a displacement, only the figure of 208 BHP. The text on the trunk of the car suggests an engine of 1500cc.

GTV6SA says that the car is one of the two 1500cc 16V Iniezione prototypes that were developed by Autodelta. The exact period during which this engine/car was developed has not been verified by anyone. Coys suggests that the car was developed in period with the Giulia Sprint GTA.

GTV6SA says that Quote “This car will only increase in value due to its rarity especially as its configuration is in original Autodelta trim not "add ons" as mentioned above. This 1.5 litre 16V engine had an output of 196 hp which in a 1600 shell is very powerful for the era.I'm sure people do not realise its true value yet. I"ve know of the existence of this car for more than 20 years and it has been hidden away from the public.” Unquote.

Berlinista asked GTV6SA Quote “Gtv6, could you tell me when it was built at autodelta then? And perhaps shine a light on why they would have picked an obsolete Sprint GT shell instead of a 1750 mk1 , or gta shell? As far as I believe, the 16v head is rather a late development.
Believe me I really like the car, but I find it obscure and strange.” Unquote

GTV6SA further states hat Quote ”16V engines have been used by Autodelta since the 60's. Alec Mildren an Australian Alfa dealer had a stradale 1300GTA 16V built by Autodelta. I suspect that the 1.5 was also developed prior to the F.I.A. changing the class capacity to 1600cc's hence the capacity of this engine. Only personnel involved with the development at Autodelta during this period would know the truth. One of the reasons why they used a steel shell may be because the power ouput was much higher than GTA's of that era being able to handle the increased stresses because some earlier all alloy floored GTA's were showing stress cracks
Later GTA's had steel floor pans.Here in Australia , it is a known fact that the 1300 & 1600 Giulia 105 chassis are lighter than the later 1750 2000 ones” Unquote.

As far as I (Olaf) can verify, the FIA did not change the class capacity from 1500 to 1600cc in the Appendix J for Group 2 during the period from 1961 to 1965 and later. Please let someone verify this.

This is what the text of Coys says:


Quote ”Estimate: €110,000 - €130,000
In 1962, the successor for the very popular Giulietta series was introduced. This car was the Alfa Romeo Giulia, internally called the “Series 105”. The coupé of the 105 series, used the shortened floor pan from the Giulia Berlina and was designed by Bertone.

At the time, Alfa was very active in Motor sport. Autodelta , the racing division of Alfa, developed a car for competition that closely resembled to the road going model. These cars were named GTA instead of GT, the 'A' standing for “Alleggerita”, Italian for lightweight. The GTA was produced first in 1965 as a 1600 (1570 cc) and later as a 1300 Junior version. The GTA auto mobiles were also manufactured in either street (Stradale) or pure race (Corsa) trim.
The GTA had aluminium outer body panels instead of steel, (the inner steel panels were also of thinner gauge, the inner and outer panels were bonded and pop-riveted together), magnesium alloy wheels, clear plastic side windows, an aluminium rear upper control arm, different door handles and quarter window mechanisms, and lightweight interior trim. The engine had a new double ignition cylinder head (called twin plug, later in the eighties the system was called twin spark) cylinder head with a Marelli distributor from a Ferrari Dino, 45mm carburettors instead of 40mm and magnesium camshaft cover, sump, timing cover and bell housing. The transmission gear ratios were closer than standard and the gears were machined for lightness and quicker shifting. In full race form this engine could produce up to 170 hp. The 1600 GTA did not have a brake booster and had a thicker radiator than the standard vehicle. For homologation 500 cars were made for racing and road use.

The car in our auction is a rather special one, it is basically a Giulia Sprint GT but it was heavily modified in period to race specification just as the the forthcoming GTA´s was. It was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system.

This engine was very powerful, producing 208 bhp as opposed to the later GTAm´engines that produced 150- 160 bhp. It proved too expensive for Autodelta who did all the development work and who opted for the GTAm s twin spark design instead. This prototype engine was, according to the vendor, later used in a World endurance speed boat record attempts by boat maker Molinari.

A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA and this prototype´s mechanical specifications are similar to that of the quickest race prepared GTA´s, it also has a shorter ratio gearbox. This car is an important part of post-war Alfa Romeo history and is also certified by Registro Alfa Romeo.” Unquote.
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post #37 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-21-2014, 06:27 PM
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Hi Olaf,

I am not totally familiar with Tony Adriaensens` Alleggerita so your subject`s answers may appear in the text! However, I can only find reference to the subject "Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines" as an appendix.

First page deals with "GTA 1600 16 valves, also called 1600 F2"

Second page "1500 Marino 91" " - see page attached - note annotation 91" -

Third page; two fotos of the "...rare 1500 Marino 91" engine"

Subsequent pages; deal with the 1300 16 valve engines for offshore power boat racing and details of 1300/1600S/1900 4V/GTA-GTAm Marino/2000 16valve, and details of GTA,GTA junior and GTAm -16 valve/ GTAm 2000 16 valve triple ignition etc etc. No further mention of 1500 engine in any form.

Trust that is helpful.

Richard
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post #38 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-21-2014, 09:49 PM
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Just to add a bit of clarification?? I can find no trace - well at least Google can`t! - of an Eugenio Molierari - as per Tony As`caption to above foto - but does throw up an Eugenio Molinari - as per PO/Coys write-up - very successful power boat racer in Molinari boats. Pages and pages of stuff on Boat Racing Facts Forum; too many to search for an Alfa 1500 engined boat....

Richard

Last edited by richards; 01-21-2014 at 09:51 PM. Reason: added word
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post #39 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-22-2014, 12:30 AM
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People shouldn't try to read too much into posts after all it is an opinion. The information that was relayed to me about the 1500cc 16V Giulia coupe was given to me from the previous Late owner( whose name I wont disclose due to Privacy considerations). I have no reason to doubt him as he was an avid collector of Alfa's as well as a learned Gentleman. I suspect that he had a very good relationship with Autodelta as he not only had that prototype but also an Ex-Autodelta GTAm, 1600GTA Corsa. a Monza as well as a 2 litre 16V Alfetta GT Gr.2 Rally car that has been documented in my Turbodelta book! I have also read on another forum that Autodelta didn't sell its experimental/special prototype to normal customers, some were placed in storage ( Museum) others were sold off or destroyed.You are lucky just to own one of these cars let alone a number of rare ex-Autodelta racing machines. Most of these cars were hidden away from public eyes but I knew of his collection when he invited me to see them back in the early 90's. Most of the mechanics from Autodelta's early inception days are no longer with us and because of that a lot of knowledge and references about their development and experimental engines/cars has been lost. On top of that only those Autodelta staff involved with the development and experimental side would know about these special projects. For example Vin Sharp who recently restored the Brian Foley GTAm tried to find out the history/origin about his car. Even the Alfa Historic archives do not have this information but I did manage to find out the name of the actual person at Autodelta who was in charge of this transaction but due to the passage of time even he couldn't remember much about its history! After the Fiat takeover much of the records were destroyed or lost. Also after the Fiat takeover many of the ex-Autodelta personnel were horrified that many original moulds and castings were destroyed or trashed. As for the origins of the 1500cc 16V engine, to throw some light on the matter, One of the very first mechanics from Autodelta's inception days told me that each year Autodelta manage to develop a different/new specification engine. This may be the reason why this is a 1500cc engine because Autodelta experimented with many different bore /stroke ratios. You only need to look at some of the 1600 GTA bore/stroke ratios and the 1300CC bore /stroke ratios. Even though as Olaf states that the capacity 1600cc didn't change, this wasn't a reason why Autodelta didn't utilise a smaller capacity but higher reving engine to produce a higher power output with a smaller capacity engine. One should also remember that when Autodelta was developing the GTAm engine for Gr.2 (105 1750) they didn't have a 2 litre block hence the Siamese linered 1779 block. You only need to look at the later Alfacorse 75 Evo motors. even though they are 1.8( nom) to stay under the 2.5 liter turbo'ed capacity, the Evo motor still had a special bore /stroke ratio ( 79.6x88.5 ) 1761 cc which was different from the Stradale 75 Turbo (80x88.5) 1779cc. Even the later DTM 2.5 V6 60deg. engines though small capacity revved to 1200rpm to achieve max 400+ HP. The later DTM engine developing near 500Hp was loosely based on a production Montreal block of 90 Deg. configuration but that is another story in itself.Much of my information has been transmitted to me by Ex Autodelta staff of that era who were involved with the development and or purchasing. Even in Tony Adriens original Allegerita book where he showed photos of the rare 3 existing GTA-SA engines , I already had seen them years before that publication. I have been privileged to also learn a lot about the internal politics within Autodelta as well as their relationships with rival competitors Lancia, Fiat, Ferarri but much of it is too controversial to disclose and even if it were most of you would be sceptical that it ever happened! I have also been lucky to learn about the factory Alfacorse DTM No.1 team and about Alfacorse2 team and some of the things that went on there. Maybe someday I will write a book about that episode.
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post #40 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-22-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GTV6SA View Post
....lots of interesting history....
I find these sort of posts interesting but also sad when one realises that history is destroyed by fading memories fade, people passing on and even more sadly, by the ignorant who threw away moulds, castings and and historical records and not just at Alfa.

thank you for that.
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post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-22-2014, 11:09 AM
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GT Am?

It is indubitable interesting car, though I am not sure that it should be GTA topic as it has almost nothing to do with GTA, GTA SA, GTAJ or even with GT Am (as it is always associated with GTA series). I will repeat my opinion that the price is high for such a car, (I don't understand why it is considered "prototype" as there is no trace of that project in AR archive), suitable for collection, some AR museum or just a curiosity. I do accept that it was produced at Settimo, (though the body is pretty old to be honest), but it has no value for historic racing and is far away from GTA story. Anyhow such experiments were common in those days and Chiti personally never lost opportunity to try new solutions. I have heard Bonini speaking about very interesting projects as indipendent rear suspension GTA tested by him at Mugello for example. Giulia 1500 engine with four valves was tested with flat and HC head chambers, single and two candles as it was possible solution for F2, and was also majored to 1700 and 1900 ccm, with different solutions. All these projects are known, and 1500 single spark four valve engine was used also for nautical racing as 1500 EB 91 (EntroBordo-in board) and has obtained some WR if I do remember well. AR was constantly present in boat racing from 1937, producing stright 2600, and also star engine for racing boats, and also one Montreal V8 engine was ellaborated for boat racing. Some of these engines were made by Autodelta at Settimo. The rear suspension of 1500 "prototype" is just simple rear suspension of common GT, certainly not suitable for racing. For dedicated followers of AR curiosities, here is the boat with Giulia engine and also Giulia 1500 four valve head of the same engine.
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post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-23-2014, 01:02 AM
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Eugenio and Livio Molinari (no definite link with the 1500cc Marino yet)

Quote:
Originally Posted by richards View Post
Just to add a bit of clarification?? I can find no trace - well at least Google can`t! - of an Eugenio Molierari - as per Tony As`caption to above foto - but does throw up an Eugenio Molinari - as per PO/Coys write-up - very successful power boat racer in Molinari boats. Pages and pages of stuff on Boat Racing Facts Forum; too many to search for an Alfa 1500 engined boat....

Richard
Hello Richard and members,


I didn't find the 1500cc "Marine" or "Marino" but here is a piece of info on Eugenio Molinari and Alfa Romeo with opera singer Pavarotti that is "in period".
AlfaSport Club

And in this thread, some Alfa Romeo engines with displacements are mentioned, 1500cc and Autodelta engines amongst them.
There is also the mentioning of Eugenio Molinari with a sequence of years in which he raced Alfa Romeo engines, one of which was an Autodelta engine in 1974.
Then there is a Livio Molinari who also raced with Alfa Romeo engines, one of which seems to be a 1500cc in 1971. Other 1500cc Alfa Romeo engines are also mentioned but they all seem to be later than 1971.

Please let someone verify this information and add what is missed by me.

Molinari Eugenio #20 (1973) | Three Point Hydroplanes - Italia
Molinari Livio - Molivio #90 (1970) | Three Point Hydroplanes - Italia

All this information came from:

A list of historical boats, pilots and victories | Three Point Hydroplanes - Italia

Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-23-2014 at 01:23 AM. Reason: additional info
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post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-23-2014, 02:35 AM
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1500 16V

Yesterday I forgot the photo of 16V TS head and engine 1600 16V GTA from 1967,and to repeat once again: Engines for nautical racing were produced continuously from 1937 and in Autodelta times they were made in Settimo. Small (and not too small) producers as Abbate, Celli, Lucini & Frigerio, Molinari (they produced racing boats also), Telaroli, Timossi and many others used AR engines for their boats. So, it is obvious that many more than few engines were produced for nautical use in past years. Many of them have used 1300 GTA, 1600 GTA and reduced 1500 Injection engines made in Autodelta factory. These facts are well known and documented.
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post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-23-2014, 02:29 PM
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I have no basis, but I can't help but think that this is a case of someone found a 16valve racing boat motor and jammed it into the closest thing to a GTA they had at the time... See also the Angelini 16valver (cooling layout suggests it's a single seater race car head. F2?) that's been put into a steel bodied GT more recently in the US.

A 64 GT is certainly a couple of years older than the lucas flat slide injection AFAIK.

1966 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce - pretty much finished!
Bunch of bikes too.
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post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-24-2014, 01:22 AM
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The cilinderhead in the picture is not 16V but 8V twinplug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borzacchini Jr View Post
Yesterday I forgot the photo of 16V TS head and engine 1600 16V GTA from 1967,and to repeat once again: Engines for nautical racing were produced continuously from 1937 and in Autodelta times they were made in Settimo. Small (and not too small) producers as Abbate, Celli, Lucini & Frigerio, Molinari (they produced racing boats also), Telaroli, Timossi and many others used AR engines for their boats. So, it is obvious that many more than few engines were produced for nautical use in past years. Many of them have used 1300 GTA, 1600 GTA and reduced 1500 Injection engines made in Autodelta factory. These facts are well known and documented.
Hello Borzacchini Jr,

Thanks for the pictures.
But the cilinderhead definitely is not 16V single plug, it's 8V twin plug.

And to the members:
May I add this link for some additional info on AR 603142. Please read the info with care as some of it is definitely not true.
Autodelta 16v hardcore: 1966 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GT gr.5 | Classic Virus


Ciao, Olaf

Last edited by Zagato_Olaf; 01-24-2014 at 03:06 AM. Reason: additional info
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