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GT Veloce 1600

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#1 · (Edited)
GT Veloce 1600: Restoration/buying tips

Numerous attempts at restoring GT Veloces 1600 have occurred over the years and it's come to my attention that whilst as a private alfisti restoring my GT Veloce 1600 that there has been some confusion and miss information in the past of what is and whats not original factory specifications for the GT Veloces 1600. This thread's aim is to share the information I have found in an open forum so you can make your own mind up as to how you restore and present your GT Veloce 1600 be it for concorso or just to go for drives to the country side.

[Sharing information about 105's forms the core of my over 700 post's here in Alfabb, I mainly use primary sources like documents produced by the factory(Italian versions only) and FIA homologation documents and FCA Heritage build Certificates in Italian (Certificate of origin) of cars I have in my database. I always provide links or copies to all public documents I've used so when you are reviewing my reasoning points/conclusions that you can easily check all the documents.]

The production of the GT Veloce 1600 was completely different in many ways to it's predecessor the GT Sprint, as there are three different versions of the GT Veloce 1600 when the GT Sprint had only one version.

The three versions of the GT Veloce 1600 are
Version 1[65 to early 67]: Had deep rear arches and Dunlop brakes front and rear.
Version 2[Early 67 to mid-late 67] : (I refer Version 2 cars as meaning the Group 2 as listed in FIA 5126) Had deep rear arches and ATE adapters on the front Dunlop uprights to take ATE calipers. The rear axle had ATE calipers.
Version 3[late 67 onwards]: Had high arches and solid ATE uprights (with no adapters:to be confirmed). The rear axle had ATE calipers.Sources: FIA document 5126 and Alfa Romeo parts manual plus actual cars.

For each version of the GT Veloce 1600 could be ordered in the standard or the luxury Bertone De Luxe body option. The Bertone De Luxe included extras. One of the extra options was a leather interior. The only leather colours available for the GT Veloce 1600 were dark brown leather (pelle testa di moro) or red leather (pelle rossa). The seat panels had perforations in the leather. Source Alfa Romeo factory parts manuals and sighting actual cars and details presented here https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt...t-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/car...xe-option.html

The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for vinyl seats, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or a tan/beer colour.
The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for combined cloth and vinyl seats, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or a tan/beer colour.
The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for the carpet, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or red.
The GT Veloce 1600 never came in a black interior. So no black vinyl seats and no black vinyl door cards and no black leather seats and no black leather door cards and no black carpet and no black rear windscreen parcel shelve
I think you need to consult the Italian spare parts catalogue (page 425 and 426) to confirm colors of rear parcel shelf as I think there are errors in the English translated version on theses pages.
The GT Veloce 1600 came with AR 00536 engines and Weber 40 DCOE 27 carbies.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
The FIA homologation paper 5126 for the GT Veloce 1600 will give you some details as to the versions (even though they don't use the word version), they do use Group 1 and Group 2. There were only 1000 Group 2 cars, these cars are what I call version 2.

You can tell if you have one of these cars if it has deep rear arches and ATE adapters on the front Dunlop uprights to take ATE calipers. See the details on pages 11 and 12 of FIA 5126, and the spare parts manual. For the Group 2(version 2) cars came with a better range of parts like LSDs, different gearbox ratios, 6x15 wheels and pistons etc (some parts possibly from the GTA) etc as listed in the document. GT Veloce 1600 cars that raced in Australia in events like Bathurst in 1967
(would have been Group 2 cars I think) came third and fourth against the the first and second place cars which were 289 V8 Falcon GT XR.

So version2 (Group 2) cars are rare (only 1000 cars) compared to version 1(Group 1 cars).
Even though I have placed nominal dates for version 1 and version 2(Group 2) The Group 2 cars could have been available from 1966 but most likely production was in the first half of 1967 as the last of the 1600 GTA's were made in 1967(only 60 cars) The last 60 GTA's may have already been allocated and those who missed out on a 1600 GTA purchased one of the GT Veloce 1600 Group 2 cars.

The version 3 cars with the high rear arches also had ATE brakes but on solid ATE uprights (with no adapters) but these cars were still Group 1 cars but differed from the earlier Group 1 cars so I have called them version 3 cars.

Steve
 

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#3 ·
Any ideas as to how many Gt Veloces were made with that deluxe option? I believe the deluxe option was quite expensive. I have one but I've never seen another in person and only a few others in photos. I can't imagine it was more than 5% of the ~5500 that were made in 67. I am still trying to restore my seats with that leather perforation that came with the deluxe.

1967GTV
 
#5 ·
In the 40+ years I have been an Alfa owner there have been many times when I thought I'd figured out what model was what, what spec followed what spec, yadda yadda yadda. Inevitably the latest 'understanding' gets thrown out the door and in the end I've come to the conclusion that what happened in Arese stayed in Arese!

When I got to the US some 5 years ago it was like starting all over on this one, US market cars definitely have their own history and terminology. Put a US spec 115 GTV alongside a ROW one, the differences are huge.
 
#6 ·
A good start on differences. As mentioned by others these lists can never be 100% with Alfa’s as markets and what Luigi picked out of the parts bin on the day are factors. (We tried with Supers and the document got quite large!)

Later ones also had 4 bolt front crossmembers which was a significant improvement for strength.
 
#7 · (Edited)
A couple of things to note, firstly the GT Veloce certainly DID come with Burgundy/Wine dark red seats, as I owned one in the late '70s with them. Same material as the S1 1750 basket weave (which is impossible to get now). The car was originally a dark green with dark red. I also have in my possession 1 black Gt Veloce seat + 2 dark grey ones.
Also, the FIA reference to 1000 examples of Gp2 is the minimum production requirement for a model qualification for that class, it does NOT mean that only 1000 of this model were made. FIA documents are of little value in determining what was or wasn't manufactured as a particular model by the factories. Manufacturers tended to submit most models to the FIA just in case, plus add in a mix of parts as potential options from other models that may prove useful in motorsport. None of this means that cars containing optioned parts were ever actually constructed by the factory. Most of this was all on paper in the background & available as/ when the need arose. I would hate the think of the amount of time I spent in the 70s & 80s combing the FIA documents searching out all the possible available advantages & arguing my case with CAMS officials.
I agree with your summation of the 3 version of brakes, it seems to be the final dedicated ATE upright went right thru on 1300 & 1600jnr as well.
As for the Bathurst race cars, these were literally stock off the showroom floor. In fact, the MW Motors car which led the race for a short time with Paul Hawkins/Syd Fisher, went back onto the showroom floor the following week & bought by a lady solely because she liked the tan interior. I'm guessing it was a discounted 'demostrator' model....:)
 
#9 ·
Another spanner in the works is custom orders. I had a friend custom ordered and picked his coupe up from the factory in 1966 and he had all sorts of little things that were different to what we normally see. Pity it was 15 years ago that he told me and I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...
 
#10 · (Edited)
It's simple if documentary evidence that the GT Veloce 1600 came in black or deep purple(amaranto) seats then it would be on the factory Certificate of origin (In Italian)!
So if you have such a build certificate place a copy on Alfabb so we can adjust the story. So with no evidence and claiming you had one 10 years after they were built, it could have been the previous owner had a local trimmer using the material available/used off the 1750 GTV or placing a dye on tan seats to make them appear black or aramanto.
As for placing different interpretations into the FIA 5126 document that was written 50 years ago, you have to use original cars and primary evidence/facts to give more certainty. I was under the impression the cars had to be built first before they gained FIA homologation. But then again none of us were there at FIA or the factory in 1965/66/67 so it will always be a debate we can have over a beer as to what they meant.
Steve
 
#14 ·
It's simple documentary evidence that the 1600 GT Veloce came in black or Burgundy/Wine dark red seats then it would be on the build certificate ! So if you have such a build certificate place a copy on Alfabb so we can adjust the story. So with no evidence and I had one 10 years after they were built , it could have been a local trimmer using the material available/used off the 1750 GTV.
As for placing different interpretations into the FIA 5126 document that was written 50 years ago, you have to use original cars and primary evidence/facts to give more certainty. I was under the impression the cars had to be built first before they gained FIA homologation. But then again none of us were there at FIA or the factory in 1966/67 so it will always be a debate we can have over a beer as to what they meant.
Steve
Hi Steve,
I can't supply a build certificate as I only owned/drove the car for maybe 18 months. I can assure you though that all the trim was original & showing signs of 10+ years of use. Following up build sheets from Alfa was not exactly common then, & nobody had any particular interest to do so for what was just a worn & used daily driver car then.
Other models also have factory anomalies: I have a '69 S1 1750, grey (not silver) with the wine interior. I have the original documents plus the sales person (David Wright, & importer John Emery) clearly remember the car & its first owner. However this combination is the ONLY example they ever recall, certainly in this state, & it was never ordered in the first place. It apparently just turned up among the various per-ordered colored cars when the ship unloaded!
For FIA there was a minimum build requirement, so 1000 examples is the min, even if say 5000 were made. I've never added up the GT Veloces numbers in Fusi for instance.
Cheers,
Vince.
 
#11 ·
The black Veloce seats I had were in the original pattern , I got them 20 years ago, the previous owner had stored them for many years, the fabric was very well worn through, I can't say for a fact that they were original covers from 1967 but its really unlikely they were not.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I guess we are all forgetting as to when the third wave of spare parts suppliers started around the world, I think probably in the late 1970's so I'm not surprised people think black and deep purple(amaranto) vinyl seats in basket weave were original for the GT Veloce 1600.
I think trimmers working for theses suppliers could have easily been able to access basket weave in the 70's in black or amaranto to match the colours of the 1750 GTV, another for debate.
Or a privately commissioned trimmer could have easily ordered(in black or amaranto) a set of front seat base covers for a S1 1750 GTV and a set of front back rest covers for a S2 1750 GTV and had more than enough material to cut them up to make the front seats for the GT Veloce 1600 in black or amaranto!

What I'm saying is don't get confused with what the factory produced and what third party suppliers(third wave) and private individuals produced.
In https://www.classicalfaromeoregistry.com/type-105-giulias/gt there are 40 1600 GT Veloces listed in Australia and another 70 in the rest of the world a total of 110 cars out of 12,499 cars(Savill)[Tally up of numbers shows Fusi 12,501 LHD and 1,737 c.d/CKD a total of 14,238 cars].
Feel free to post your factory Certificate of origin(In Italian) that proves black or amaranto were original colours for the GT Veloce 1600.
Steve
 
#12 ·
20 years ago there was no correct basketweave material produced to recover the seats. So if they were the original pattern then I would assume they are original. Vin has been playing with these cars for longer than I have probably been alive so I highly value his informed input as well.
 
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#13 ·
Re Vin's comment above about re-sale of race cars, from the Bill Tuckey 'Bathurst Book', albeit mentioned in the 1967 race report,

Mildren's two white Alfas where offered for sale after the Gallagher, using this tongue-in-cheek approach:

"These cars have been carefully run in on private roads under the personal supervision of Alec Mildren himself. During the running in
period they were regularly inspected by highly trained Alfa mechanics. The brake pads, suspension and tyres were regularly inspected.
They were carefully driven by experienced drivers at constant speeds and the brakes were not used unless absolutely necessary".


I love it!

Cheers,

Paul.

P.S. for our Non-Australian contingent,
'Gallagher' - cigarette brand, sponsors of the Bathurst race at the time.
Alec Mildren - brave aussie who championed Alfa into the Australian market with some volume sales from the 60's onwards. Also got the T33 to Aus for racing etc.
 
#16 ·
I guess all things are possible Steve, but logically why would a car just over 10 years old have re-upholstered seats, door & rear cards?
It is also most unlikely that they would manage to get the original factory vinyl back in the late '70s, unless bought as genuine Alfa spare parts & the cost of the whole job would be worth probably as much as the car! I recall only paying around $900 for the GT Veloce at the time & I know for sure the basket weave pattern was same as my other S1 1750 at the time. This I specifically recall because the Ford Escort guys at my work had a similar pattern only on the diagonal.
 
#18 ·
I have no first hand knowledge but the black 1967 Veloce seats I had ,( and still have but now they are a lovely shade of tan ), had the correct factory coverings and which were in storage from at latest 1990 where exactly in the condition you would expect very well used 20 year old seats to be.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Like most of us, Steve bases his thoughts on a combination of what has been observed on cars & what is in parts books & model specification.
No one method is infallible so it has to be a balance of what is known & seen & what is printed, plus the historical time line of production: For instance, by that I mean no Sprint GT Veloce could have ever had a 2lt engine in, because the car build predates the existence of the engine. However, by the same token, the parts book DOES show the internal cabin light without a handle listed for GT, GTV & GTA. Now I personally have NEVER seen these on any other cars other than GTA. Presumably the parts listing is correct, & this seems to be backed up in the new Dasse series books,
but after all these years, I've never come across them & I've never found anyone else who has either. Just one example of anomalies we face. So I'm not surprised to hear that other people have also personally encountered things like a vinyl or carpet option that may or may not be in any given edition of a parts book for instance. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the factory commissioned a small run of alternative colors to try in a few cars to judge demand or just asses the final look, & those cars just went into the general mix for sale. I know from talking to the people who were in charge of pre-orders for our Australian cars that what was delivered was NEVER 100% what was ordered. Apparently about 60% was the average success rate, the rest being whatever was loaded onto the ship in Italy. I mean, what were they going to do, send 'em back?!
I'm having lunch tomorrow with both David Wright & John Emery, so I'll ask a bit further on their observations of the period anomalies.
PS, another I just thought of: how many people know that SOME early cam covers were painted hammer-tone silver on 101, 105 & 106? The bigger mystery is why?; apparently when paint removed there was never any obvious flaws to hide....
 
#20 · (Edited)
When it comes to 105 cars I have owned (of which there have been atleast 15):

Five GT Veloce 1600s of which 4 are RHD one LHD.
Three 1300 GTj two step noses and one smooth nose.
Six 1750 GTVs of which four were S1s and two S2.
One GTV 2L.

I have 14 of the 15 factory build sheets of my cars which I consider to be facts not just observations. These details plus the factory parts catalogue in Italian are primary documents/sources (not English translated documents which are secondary documents/sources) complement each other to provide a strong argument.

Complete Alfa Romeo cars were imported to Australia, but I doubt Alfa Romeo attracted a local content component as Alfa Romeo was not present in Australia in 1966/67 and it did not have manufacturing plant in Australia in 1966/67 like Toyota where the imported 1976 Toyota Corona that had wool seats made from wool cloth from the Australian Onkaparinga wool mills.

But in saying that it may have been possible for Alfa GT Veloce 1600 car body shells in primer to be imported into Australia as a spare part and assembled here in Australia by Mildren or one of the Wrights. So it's possible they put non standard interiors in the cars, but the catch is your car was a body shell part and never had a factory listed interior colour or a factory listed exterior colour and this will show up on the FCA Heritage Certificate of Origin as interior colour none and exterior colour none.
The last listings I have of Wright and Mildren are
June 1968 when Wright imported one of my cars
March 1969 when Mildren imported one of my cars
Then October 1970 when Alfa Romeo Australia imported one of my cars.

This I think means only cars imported after October 1970 when Alfa Romeo Australia imported cars could be considered to be factory authorised changes to the interiors. So this means any changes Mildren and Wright made to the interiors of cars be they full cars or body shells are not original to factory specs and since the last GT Veloce 1600 is listed in 1968 two years before the factory took over I doubt black or amaranto (deep purple) are original interior factory colours. I do accept that any variations or anomalies which Mildren and or Wright initiated were cultural, that is non factory initiated so are non standard. So I doubt FCA Heritage build Certificate will list a 1600 GT Veloce with black or amaranto (deep purple) are original interior factory colours.

If you have the body number of a GT Veloce 1600 RHD or LHD 1600 you think had an original interior colour of black or an original interior colour of amaranto (deep purple) then get the factory Certificate of Origin in Italian and post it.
Here is the link it will cost about 77 Euros
https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/classic-services/alfa-romeo-certificate-origin

I'm happy to be corrected and I'll even pay you to so you can prove I'm wrong!

I will pay $30US to the first person that presents a FCA Heritage Certificate of origin(In Italian) for a GT Veloce 1600 (not an e-mail or English translation version of the certificate) that was built at the factory with a nero (black) interior vinyl seats and door cards.
and
I will pay $30US to the first person that presents a FCA Heritage Certificate of origin (In Italian) for a GT Veloce 1600 (not an e-mail or English translation version of the certificate) that was built at the factory with an amaranto (deep purple) interior vinyl seats and door cards or burgundy(wine colour) interior vinyl seats and door cards.

As you can see I'm prepared to entertain both sides of the argument But the argument that the GT Veloce 1600 original interior colours also included black and amaranto (deep purple), is a weak argument. I'm sure the Concours d'Elegance judges are open minded and will tend away from the weaker argument.
Regards,
Steve
 
#21 ·
Hi Steve,
I wish I had a record of my old GT Veloce body number! It will be interesting to see if anyone does have black or amarante (? the actual color in real life is a deep red rather than purple: perhaps this is lost in Italian/English translation?) for the GT Veloce, according to the factory archives.
Of course this assumes someone with this model & uncommon color trim is reading this & also wishes to obtain a certificate to satisfy our curiosity! The only other issue there is that IT IS certain that not all the factory body number/color records are correct. I know several people who for instance have conflicting body color with what the factory records show, yet their car has the original factory paint in all the inside areas that have not been touched or repaired, some being 105s others 116s etc.....On that basis, if some small variations on few cars ever happened, would it have been recorded accurately anyway?
I will ask about any local trim changes or bare body assembly & see what those who actually worked for the importer/dealers & for Alfa Romeo Australia back in the period say about that. I can't say I've ever asked about that possibility before, but who knows.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I have to say I do respect the entrepreneurial efforts of Mildren, Wrights, Gulson and others in Australia that made it possible for us in Australia to have and own these pre 1970 Alfa Romeos which had large tariffs (purchase taxes)

From those involved I was told, it was every one in the family being on deck 'from an early age doing what they could to help out even giving up their school holidays to do the hard tasks of the parts stocktaking year after year so they can help their family' and ultimately Alfa Romeo owners in the 60's and 70's etc.

If Mildren or Wrights or Gulson etc made up interiors that's still a good story, so let's hear it.
Regards Steve
 
#23 ·
Yeah I wish the Alfa Archives enquiries we’re still free. I actually got a bunch of factory manuals including parts manuals (thick) copied, bound and sent to me for free! 15 odd years ago. When it was free, that’s how I got details on the lowest and highest chassis numbers. As for factual, yeah my Super has its original interior(bought it off the second owner who bought it with 10000 on the clock and plastic still on the door cards), factory said it has a black interior and it certainly isn’t.

I’ve got 299740 as a CKD Aussie car, which is interesting. And a note saying 1407 factory built and 380 CKD 105.37 cars. Wish I knew where that was from. All the archives specs I have for different cars are leather(colour) or black skai.
 
#24 · (Edited)
The last GT Veloce 1600 I got a Certificate of Origin for was in 2018 and it said produced 1966 with exterior Rosso Alfa and interior Skai color nero fumo.

Nero fumo is dark grey
Nero is black
In the English parts manual it lists Lamp black SKAI leatherette this is NOT Black Skai it's Nero fumo which is dark grey.

The translation from the Italian Nero fumo to the English of Lamp black SKAI leatherette is not correct, that is why I insist on the Italian parts manual to be the primary document.

When English speaking owners were requesting details about their cars, the factory historical section just went to the English translated version (which was incorrect and to compound the miss information was abbreviated.
I'm sorry but I will just spell it out: Sorry, I think Marco made mistakes in particular for cars that had Nero fumo(dark grey) vinyl interiors. He incorrectly translated the Italian Nero fumo to black skai!
Nero fumo is dark grey not black!

Remember all Alfa Romeos historical build records are in ? Italian! That's why you get the (70 Euro) Certificate of Origin which is in Italian as the factory only recognizes that document as the only primary document for your car!

I have no problem accepting new GT Veloce 1600 cars were sold with interiors that were not on the original build sheet like in this scenario:
A client walks in to the Alfa show room and there are only two 1600 GT Veloce cars; a white car with a vinyl tan seats and door cards and dark grey carpet and a red car with vinyl dark grey seats and door cards and red carpet.

The client wants the white car but with the vinyl dark grey seats and door cards to match the dark grey carpet. In a few hours the seats and door cards are swapped from the red car to the white car and the sale is made thus happy dealer and happy customer. As for the red car it now has vinyl tan seats(still in their protective plastic covering) and red carpet still all factory correct but no longer what was on the original build sheet.

What we are debating is were there factory GT Veloce 1600 or CKD (105.37) GT Veloce 1600 cars installed with vinyl amaranto (deep purple) interior seats and door cards or vinyl wine coloured burgundy seats or door cards or nero (black) seats and door cards.
In these case for the colours amaranto (deep purple) seats and door cards in vinyl or wine coloured burgundy seats or door cards in vinyl or nero (black) seats or door cards in vinyl, I doubt any GT Veloce 1600 was ever sold new or assemble CKD with these colours.

I have evidence of door cars and seats that had their colour changed from tan to black via a vinyl dye. This is something that a privately commissioned trimmer could easily have done. The comment my black seats are wearing down to a brown colour, is actually the black dye that was placed on the seat by the trimmer has worn out and the seat's original tan colour is showing. I would says that in the past 1970's that trimmers could also change the colour of tan seats to amaranto, deep purple or wine colour or black so that the owner could at a fraction of the cost of having to re trim the car so as to on sell it. Trimmers usually cover the seats and trim panels in plastic after they dye the panels of the seats as it takes over 24 hours for the dyes to set, so that you don't get the new colours on your clothes. The dye needs to be touched up a few weeks later on the seats otherwise it can wear out/come off.

Regards Steve
 
This post has been deleted
#26 · (Edited)
Hi Sketchl,
I said the original certificate had to be in Italian that's why the factory now states 'The Certificate of Origin, printed on high-quality paper, will be sent to the address you have provided (kindly note that the document will be produced only in Italian language). '
Sorry but I think Marco sent out ones produced in the English language) which were incorrectly translated for the cars with Nero fumo seats (dark grey) and these and any preview in English have a high probability of also being incorrect if the same mistakes in translation occurs for cars with Nero fumo seats (dark grey). The English translated text is NOT The Certificate of Origin as it's not in the Italian language. Even the current 'alternative', information could be provided in the text of an e-mail, which is in English may be incorrect for cars with Nero fumo seats (dark grey).
For your case sorry you can't claim the $30, as I'm asking for The Certificate of Origin in Italian.
[It's a pitty Sketchl(Sergio) deleted his post claiming his interior was black skai, but I'm sure he will inform us by posting a picture of his Certificate of Origin in Italian when he gets it]
Here is a copy of the emails sent out to me in 2018
Regards Steve
_________________________________________________________
'Following your request, we would like to inform you that from our search in the production registers concerning the chassis number you provided (AR ******), the following information is available:
- Model
- Production date
- Delivery date
- Market destination
- Exterior color
- Interior

The Certificate of Origin, printed on high-quality paper, will be sent to the address you have provided (kindly note that the document will be produced only in Italian language).
A preview will be sent to your email address (this one will be produced in English language). The cost of this service is 70.00€. In order to arrange the shipping of the documentation, we kindly ask you to provide the delivery address and the phone number already with the confirmation of this option.

As an alternative, the information could be provided in the text of an e-mail. The cost of this service is 30.00 €.
After you send us your confirmation by replying to this email, we will proceed to sending you the payment instructions.
Kind regards,
Valeria Falcone
 
#28 · (Edited)
Looks like the following colours: black or red or wine color or amaranto or deep purple in vinyl were never listed for the GT Veloce 1600 LHD or RHD.

Let me explain

1. Look at page 444 of the Italian version of the parts manual for the GT Veloce 1600 etc
https://www.okp.de/fileadmin/Download/Ersatzteilkataloge/105_1300-1600_GT_GTV_GTC_GTA.pdf

2. Look at the base of the seats item labeled 1 for example.

3. Go to page 445, look for the label 1 on the left and Denominazione is SEDILE sinistro completo:
then Numero 'd'Ordinazione
105.36.58.001.00 is jinta pelle SKAI nero fumo (which is dark grey)
105.36.58.001.02 is jinta pelle SKAI cuoio (which is tan)
105.36.58.001.10 is panno grigio unito - finta pelle nero fumo (which is grey cloth and dark grey vinyl) Wow this is another option
105.36.58.001.12 is panno cammello -finta pelle cuoio (which is fawn cloth and tan vinyl) Wow this is another option
105.36.58.001.71 is in pelle testa di moro (which is dark brown leather)
105.36.58.001.73 is in pelle rossa (which is red leather)

Summary: For the GT Veloce 1600 LHD or RHD.
1.There were only two colours in full vinyl, they were dark grey or tan.

2.There were two options in part cloth and part vinyl. The colours were: fawn cloth and tan vinyl or grey cloth and dark grey vinyl.

3.There were only two options in leather, they were dark brown or red (Bertone DeLuxe options).

4. Certificate of Origin document only in the Italian language issued in the last two years is the only recognized document for you car; as any English documents which have been issued in the past have high probability of being incorrect as known mistakes in translation have occurred for cars with Nero fumo(dark grey) seats being incorrectly listed as black.

5. Third party suppliers and or privately commissioned trimmers in the 70's etc may have installed for cultural reasons black or red or amaranto deep purple seats in vinyl into the GT Veloce 1600 LHD or RHD (use of dye to colour original tan seats to black or red or amaranto deep purple colour may have also occurred). But these seats are NOT original factory colours in vinyl for the interior.

6. Still today in 2019 black interiors are available as kits or can be made up for those interested in customizing their car and not interested in keeping it as per factory original.

7. I'm sure the Concours d'Elegance judges are open minded and will accept the Italian version of the factory parts catalogue as a a primary source and strong evidence/facts of the factory correct colours for the interior in vinyl for the GT Veloce 1600 LHD or RHD.

The Spettacolo 2019 to be held on the 30th November 2019 and 1st December 2019 in Melbourne Australia. Here are the links
https://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/spettacolo-2019/https://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/2019/09/tiamo-spettacolo-concorso-judging/

As any entrant to this or any Concorso being fully informed as to the originality of your GT Veloce 1600, I think will be an advantage especially now where you can obtain the Certificate of Origin in Italian for your car and have access to the Italian parts catalogue thus the relevant pages concerning your car's original interior options;)
Regards Steve
 
#29 · (Edited)
Summary
The GT Veloce 1600 LHD and RHD has a number of distinct features you need to be aware of when you are either considering buying one or restoring one.
The basics
1. The cars were made in three different versions
Version 1: FIA Group 1 early (body had low rear wheel arches)
Version 2: FIA Group 2 (body had low rear wheel arches)
Version 3: FIA Group 1 late (body had high rear wheel arches)

Version 2 (FIA Group 2) had a LSD diff and a greater selection of diff ratios and gearbox ratios as well as different wheels, as well as engine/piston options for racing.

The brakes on all the three versions were different.
Version 1: Dunlop all round front and back
Version 2: ATE front calipers on ATE to Dunlop adapters on Dunlop front uprights.
Version 3: ATE front calipers on solid ATE front uprights

All three versions GT Veloce 1600 LHD and RHD only had one of six possible interiors.
Interior seats and door card options
two were leather(dark brown or red: Bertone DeLuxe option), two were full vinyl (dark grey{nero fumo} or tan) and two were part cloth and part vinyl (grey/dark grey or fawn/tan) for seats only
There were only two carpet colours red or dark grey.
The rear parcel shelf was never black.

As you can see from the factory parts catalogue, the factory focused on varying the body shape and mechanical of GT Veloce 1600 in such a short time 1965 to 1967. This was offset by the reduction in the number of interior options for the GT Veloce 1600 compared to the GT Sprint.

For the three versions of GT Veloce 1600 only had 6 options for the seats compared to GT Sprint's 25 options for seats.

The GT Veloce 1600 had 4 options for door cards while the GT Sprint's had 16 options for door cards.

What this means is all colour combinations of the previous model (GT Sprint) were not all possible for the colour combinations of the GT Veloce 1600.

If you are thinking of buying or restoring a GT Veloce 1600, you will need to:
Obtain the Certificate of Origin, produced only in the Italian language for your car. https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/classic-services/alfa-romeo-certificate-origin
(Don't use the English translated version as it could have errors)
Check out the FIA document 5126 attachment.
Have a look at the Italian parts manual only https://www.okp.de/fileadmin/Download/Ersatzteilkataloge/105_1300-1600_GT_GTV_GTC_GTA.pdf The interior is listed from page 410.
Don't use the English parts manual as it has errors.
It's only taken 54 years since the first GT Veloce 1600 was produced in 1965 to work out the correct colours for the interior, so now we can restore our car's interior to factory correct!
Good luck.
Regards Steve
 

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#30 · (Edited)
Original black seats?

Interestingly I have a set of GT Veloce 1600 vinyl covered seats in black. Photos attached. It’s definitely not dark grey (nero fumo) because I got a sample of the nero fumo vinyl from Classic Alfa to make sure of the colour before I bought a new roll of the correct matching colour vinyl.
They may look on the grey side on some photos but it’s just because they are dusty/dirty. Unfortunately I’m not with the car at the moment to get better photos.
What is interesting though is that the seats are not original to my 1966 GT Veloce 1600 and I can tell that my car would have originally had the nero fumo coloured seats because the original door cards, dash top, sunvisors and grab handles are nero fumo in colour. The seats do look old/original though with it’s original stuffing, foam etc. My original document from Italy has no info on the interior or exterior colour of my car.
All I know about the history of the seats is that they were taken from a later model stepnose GT Junior 1300 when the correct parts for my car were sourced by the PO (last photo). What model car it was taken from before being put in the Junior is unknown. Also, this was in South Africa in the era of CKD cars when exceptions may well have been possible?
 

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#31 · (Edited)
Interestingly I have a set of GT Veloce 1600 vinyl covered seats in black. Photos attached. It’s definitely not dark grey (nero fumo) ...
Hi VeloceRosso,
This is what I think many owners have faced in the past, not knowing what is original what is not.
I think holding off trimming the seats in black at least until you have examined listed documents I have suggested.
Since you are definitely planning on re trimming your front seats a review of the current black seat material may unearth some clues if it was dyed for instance, look between the stitched parts and under the seat rails off the seats? tell us what you find any evidence of nero fumo colour.
Since you car's Certificate of origin does not list an interior colour and material used I think you would be at liberty to install any of the 6 possible original interiors. Well since there is evidence of the dark grey nero fumo already in the rest of your car retriming the front seats in dark grey nero fumo may be the best option for you.

Black basket weave vinyl and black vinyl was first used on the 1750 GTV Series 1 seats in 1967, it was never used on the GT Veloce 1600 (black vinyl was never used on the GT Sprint seats).
Steve
 
#33 ·
Jannes, were the seats part of the local content and therefore not supplied in complete form by Alfa? Every SA car I`ve encountered (although admittedly not so early examples) had different seating material and sometimes pattern to the Italian, or German original.
There were sometimes quite notable variance from factory such as external colour even.
 
#34 ·
Jannes, were the seats part of the local content and therefore not supplied in complete form by Alfa? Every SA car I`ve encountered (although admittedly not so early examples) had different seating material...
Good question Richard. We may have to direct your question @AlfistiSA or someone else with more historic knowledge than myself. I suspect the early examples’ parts may have been imported with more ‘Italian’/European materials but I may be wrong. The original headliner on my car was made from unique local material though, for example.
 
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