$170K to restore a GTV - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
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$170K to restore a GTV

I do not want to steal the thunder from Steve105's post but I was stunned when I followed the link to the upcoming RM Sotheby auction. It does show the nicest GTV I have ever seen but the details say that $170K was spent on it. Now I'll admit I know absolutely nothing about the cost of a concours restoration, but $170K? Did Sophia Loren run her bosom over each body panel? Did a Persian village hand weave the carpets? I am kidding of course but am a bit awestruck at that price. And jealous.


https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/m...bertone/780539

P.S. If this was covered in another post, Andrew you can delete this.
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post #2 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:08 AM
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I wasn't able to get that link to work, but found it at: http://catalogue.rmsothebys.com/books/zapo/#p=232 Click on the magnifying glass with the "+" sign inside it in order to make the text readable.

Yea, the catalog write-up says they spent $170K restoring it and that the work was done by Coachwerks of Victoria, B.C. RM Southebys calls the restoration price "staggering".

Estimated selling price is $125 - 150K, so even if you buy this GT at the high end of the range, you'll still be "saving" $20K (try convincing you wife of this logic!).
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post #3 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by guillotineFI View Post
Generally speaking, these are not the best cars. These "full restorations" are actually assembles of every available repop part for alfas. Some of these parts are ok, others not so much.
I hear you. From your perspective, the less expensive car, the '74 GTV 2000 restored by Norman Noosha Panuyeh, with work done by Alfa Performance Connection, would be the better choice. Noosha does a beautiful job on his restorations (he is the owner and performs much of the work himself), but he doesn't go "over the top".

Noosha routinely finds and restores GTV's and has sold a few through Bring a Trailer in the $50 - $70K range (my memory may not be precise here). It will be interesting to see if Sothebys can move this car up into their $90 - $120K estimated range.

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'67 Duetto
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Last edited by Alfajay; 08-04-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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post #4 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 11:37 AM
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I would have thought most of the cost is in the body restoration not buying parts to bolt back on ... ?
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post #5 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 11:49 AM
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For A car with mostly repopped parts for that money, I would seek out a used Alfaholics GTAR..
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post #6 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 05:26 PM
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I felt sorry for the restoring company as they had the original factory leather seats and door cards but still did not replicate them? I'm also disappointed the owner did not insist they do it and now the new owner may have little chance if the old leather seat covers and door cards patterns have been thrown out.

Costs of restoration is one thing, cost of nonstandard/hybrid modifications is another thing. The valuation of the cars is something else.
As a guess when it comes to time, this car could have been restored in less than 6 weeks? Why 6 weeks? because it would take more than 6 weeks to cut the leather and install the correct Bertone DeLuxe perforation patterns and make up and install the interior.
From experience it took me about 150 hours just to put the perforation patterns in the leather for my GT Veloce 1600 seats (there are less perforations than 1750 GTV seats, but the 1750 GTV seats are more complicated) and about 200 hours for the trimmer to put seats and door cards together, so about 350 hours plus installing the seats so over 6 weeks solid for one person.

Last edited by Steve105; 08-04-2019 at 05:56 PM.
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post #7 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by guillotineFI View Post
No. This is not what I'm saying. Maybe you know Norman and are close enough to his work to know better, then ok.
Yes, I do know Norman.

My point isn't that 100.00% of the parts in his cars have passed through Arese in the 1970's; just that he is more faithful to re-using older parts than the "cost is no object", $170K restoration. That's why I used the words "would be the better choice", but perhaps I should have phrased it as "would offend you less".
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post #8 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 06:09 PM
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Alfajay makes a good point about the type of parts used on a car for a restoration. The definition of original/restored or in period parts as opposed to new parts made in 2019 that appear original.

Are there now different levels of restored cars, on one extreme one using NOS parts while other using reproduction parts?

With the desire for more of a particular model Alfa to come back to life we are seeing massive resurrections efforts using reproduction panels for the repairs.

Last edited by Steve105; 08-04-2019 at 06:37 PM.
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post #9 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:21 PM
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I think the balance between the two approaches on the extremes can lead to some interesting outcomes. On the one hand you can even reinstate the sharpness of the the crease lines on the 105 fenders and doors, like I have asked for using a NOS fender as a guide for my 1600 GTV. Or you can just repair the rust on the car and distress the paint so it looks all faded and install old usable seats and old carpet (all cleaned first) for my 1966 GTV (LHD)
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post #10 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:44 PM
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Someone spent in excess of $200K to restore a Giulietta Sprint (normale) ten or so years ago. The entire process was documented on the restorer's website. You could see where the money went but it was way over the top.

Will the buyer of this GTV actually drive it, show it, put it in their garage or living room as a piece of art?
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post #11 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:46 PM
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The major cost of restoration is the labor cost. I was told that the total labor hours for a complete restoration is from 800 to 1,000 hours and labor rates in Los Angeles are over $100 per hour. I live very close to Fast Cars and have seen $20M cars in their shop. I never wanted to ask what their labor rate is but, I believe it is probably $150 or more per hour. I have restored a number of Alfas and restoration is very expensive and most Alfas are not worth restoring like my two Milanos. I have seen very expensive cars driven on the street like the "D" Jaguar in front of my Milano near my home.
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post #12 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 09:39 PM
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I recently saw a 1967 GTV undergo complete body restoration. I could not believe how many rusted panels on that car and told the shop that the owner should have bought a better car. The GTV has a total of three rocker panels, one outer and two inner panels. I have sent six Alfas to that shop and none of them needed that much body work. The GTV has many internal panels and not easy to repair without total replacement compared to a Giulietta or 101 Giulia Spider. There is not such thing as a rust free 50 year old Alfa.
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post #13 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 10:12 PM
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For $170K, it would have to be absolutely 100% correct and so perfect that you would not drive it!!

And for my $170K, I would want it correct.... as far as I can tell in all my books and research, the 1750 Series 1 coupe did not have separate small round side indicators (turn signals) on the front fenders because the unique lights on the bumper that curve around act as indicators/turn signals and parking lights.

Pretty poor showing for $170K if you ask me!!
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post #14 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 02:39 AM
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$170,000 dollars spent on a restoration. Some people have more money than sense.
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post #15 of 75 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 06:53 AM
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The economics of restoring old cars has not made sense for a long time now. Old cars have no inherent value, much like a Patek Philippe Calatrava. No shop that restores these cars is making profits commensurate with the very high costs; skilled labor and time are expensive.

Iíve spent much more than $170K on the restoration of my 1900C SS. Is that any more justifiable just because itís a rarer car? The 1750 has far more utility than my 1900 ever will. I wonít even begin to tell you how much time and money I spent getting my Giulia back on the road. Itís not $170K but itís closer to that number than it is to $50K.

Just because many of us recall the days when you could buy a running 105 for $1500 does not mean we should cast aspersions on those who spend massive amounts to procure or restore them today. We should in fact be thanking them for keeping parts vendors and the restoration shops in business. Without either of those, weíd all be screwed.

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