GT/GTV 1600 multi-language parts manual - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
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GT/GTV 1600 multi-language parts manual

I'm looking to see if any one has a multi-language parts manual that includes the GTV 1600 RHD as I'm not 100% satisfied with this English version of the parts manual I have, as I suspect over simplifications and omissions occurred when they would get stuck in translating tricky words. I'm trying to work out carpet colours as listed in Italian prior to any translations.
Cheers Steve
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 10:58 PM
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This might tide you over until you get the full manual. Seems the translations are pretty close.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 12:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alfa2go View Post
This might tide you over until you get the full manual. Seems the translations are pretty close.
Thank you.
The translations are close except for nero fumo.
Notice the wording lampblack was used to translate nero fumo. I think this is another error in translation this time in regards to the carpet.
Nero fumo in Italian means white smoke over black which is dark grey, so the translation 'lampblack' is an error.

What does this mean?
First the GT Veloce 1600 only had dark grey (nero fumo) or red (rosso) carpets!
So the the GT Veloce 1600 never had black carpets as there is no 'Nero' by itself.

Second the GT Sprints never had black carpets either as there is no 'Nero' by itself.
GT Sprints also had dark grey carpets, along with rosso (red), bleu (blue) and cammello (fawn)!
Similarly for the GTC and GTA.

To summarize neither the GT Veloce 1600 or GT Sprints or GTC or GTA had black seats or black door cards or black carpets or a black rear parcel shelf.
Concourse judges will have to adjust their points allocation for non original black interiors.
This means that the vendors supplying interiors will need to adjust their wording to their adds so as to reflect the following cars GT Veloce 1600 or GT Sprints or GTC or GTA never came with black seats covers, carpets, door cards as original factory items.
CA are being clearer
https://classicalfa.com/in307-alfa-b...ve-vinyl-skai/
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 06-10-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 06:15 AM
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I don't believe there were/are multi language versions. I believe these manuals were published only in English and Italian.

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
Thank you.
The translations are close except for nero fumo.
Notice the wording lampblack was used to translate nero fumo. I think this is another error in translation this time in regards to the carpet.
Nero fumo in Italian means white smoke over black which is dark grey, so the translation 'lampblack' is an error.
In my traveller's Italian, "nero fumo" literally translates to "black smoke". I don't know where you get the implication that it's white smoke over black, and I don't know how you then extend that to mean grey. The one reasonable photo I have from a sales brochure shows carpets that look more black than grey.

FWIW, my confirmation from Museo Storico says my car left the factory with a simply "black" interior. I don't want to overthink this.

P.S. the Italian for lampblack is "nerofumo" (one word) which seems to be where the parts manual translation has come from. Lampblack is carbon (soot) which is about as black as you can get. Seems to me that if they let the translated parts manual out saying "lampblack" they probably meant black.

P.P.S. Surely there is someone on the BB that has even a piece of original carpet that was protected from sun?? That would clear it up nicely.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 09:21 PM
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cucinando,

black isn't necessarily 'black'!!

Just to confuse things, yes the literal word for word is 'black smoke' but a quick look on the net finds you....

"Lamp black (also spelled lampblack) is a type of carbon black obtained from the soot of burned fat, oil, tar, or resin. Lamp black is a soft brownish- or bluish-black pigment that is very stable and unaffected by light, acids and alkalis"

This site has some samples,

https://colourlex.com/project/lamp-black/

their translations,

German: Lampenschwarz, Russ | French: noir de lampe | Italian: nerofumo | Spanish: negro de humo

Here is another one,

"Lamp Black is a blue black that is lightfast, permanent and opaque"

There are a million more definitions and history/uses of the colour/pigment ('orginally collected from the residue of oil burning lamps') etc. etc.

FWIW, Years ago i had a 66 GTV that had its original interior as the pic above, carpet was definitely not a pure black, more a speccled charcoal.

Interesting topic!

Cheers,

Paul.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucinando View Post
In my traveller's Italian, "nero fumo" literally translates to "black smoke". The Italian for lampblack is "nerofumo" (one word) which seems to be where the parts manual translation has come from.
Thank you, but must be more to it than a literal translation.
Just to remind you a vast number of the Italian workers on the production line were studying part time at uni doing degrees/masters.
I expect the person/s who wrote the Italian parts manual had a degree/masters.
I think these Italian individuals intention with the words "nero fumo" as meaning white smoke over black, which is dark grey.

Now the primary document is the Italian document which lists the words nero fumo not lamp black or lampblack.
The secondary document has translated words lamp black or lampblack which may have been translated by a non Italian speaking person or an Italian person with limited English.
I think your argument has a flaw because you can't use a secondary document (English translation) and go backwards to an Italian word then translate again to get black!
The Italian document stands as the primary document and lamp black or lamp black I think are incorrect part of the secondary document in the English translation.

The correct colour in Italian is nero fumo not fumo nero.
I think nero fumo is dark grey not lampblack and certainly not black.

Cheers Steve
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 10:49 PM
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Steve,

I am of Italian parentage and sorry, it translates to 'Black Smoke' - i can't see how you draw in any other interpretation from that as far as the translation goes.

But yes, lets just say its a different shade of black or more like one of the many shades of black.

As far as,

"Just to remind you a vast number of the Italian workers on the production line were studying part time at uni doing degrees/masters."

Where on earth did that come from?

I had many relatives from the South of Italy who in the post war years traveled to the North to seek employment. Others went to Switzerland, Germany and France.

I don't remember too many of them telling stories of university study!

Cheers,

Paul.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Here are some extracts and articles that can shed some light on your question

'Compulsory secondary education up to the age of fourteen had been introduced in 1962, and with it many students decided to continue their education up to university level. Thousands flocked into universities, and the student population increased by over 180,000 between 1960 and 1968.'
'While students who failed exams were not required to leave the university, drop-out rates soared and by 1968 had reached over 50%. Hardest hit by the nature of the universities were students from working class backgrounds whose families could not afford to pay fees. Often having to work two jobs to keep themselves in education, many 'worker-students' found it impossible to attend regular lectures, and made up the great majority of those dropping out.'
With the increase in the availability of further education, thousands of young workers were experiencing the radicalising effect of the universities, and many brought this fresh perspective on their situation back to the factories once their education had finished. This new awareness, coupled with the changing needs of workers in the factories was soon to find expression in the many revolutionary groups that would penetrate the factories and take class struggle in the northern industrial belt to its height.
These conditions in the factories perpetuated throughout the mid-60s, until, in 1968, unrest in the northern factories exploded into mass struggle.'
from:
https://libcom.org/history/1962-1973...truggles-italy

https://libcom.org/history/against-s...bly-alfa-romeo

'A look at the data the evolution of job qualifications at Alfa shows, for example, that many workers were moving up the professional ladder during the 1970s, with the relative composition of the workforce in Arese shifting from a highly deskilled one towards a more qualified one. In September 1970, slightly more than 70% of the employees in Arese were categorised as unskilled, with only 21% of them certified as “skilled”. At the end of 1975, the percentage of unskilled workers had crumbled to only 23%.'
from:
https://www.academia.edu/28282590/Un..._December_2015

Last edited by Steve105; 05-27-2019 at 11:38 PM.
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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A piece of carpet and seat cover labeled Nero fumo would be great
cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 05-27-2019 at 11:52 PM.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 11:55 PM
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Hi Steve,

Have you seen the manuals on the OKP.de website?
They are said to be copies of the original Italian versions.

Regards
John

https://www.okp.de/en/tech-tips/orig...atalogues.html
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 02:51 AM
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I just listed an Alfa Parts manual on eBay. Shipping could be a cost as it is heavy and for Left Hand cars. Here is the Link.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e12000...AMOTORS%3A1123

Al
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
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Just found this site, which means I may be wrong, it can happen.

NERO FUMO in "Enciclopedia Italiana"

'The yield in black smoke from anthracene oils is theoretically around 70%, practically varying from 50 to 60%. The product appears as an impalpable, light powder, black in color, tending more to greyish as its yield from ol was greater.

So I conclude when you burn oil in a lamp the soot is tending to be greyish in colour so the abbreviation to lamp black possibly means dark grey or a shade of grey.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 05-28-2019 at 04:44 AM.
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 04:20 PM
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Steve,

I had a look at your 'articles', I still stand by what I said.

A lot of points that you made can be interpreted in different ways, suffice to say skilled is different to qualified (skilled? - fitter & turner, dye maker?).

I would take a lot of what a 'Libertarain Communism' website says with a grain of which side of the spectrum they are biased towards.

I won't argue the merits of that site in this post, as its not fair.

Cheers.

Paul.

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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 04:29 PM
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