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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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B.A.T. Romance

49K not sold for hybrid Step-front

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...tchers_bidders

The older I get.. the faster I was....
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 03:27 PM
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"hybrid" meaning a 2L swapped into a 1600cc Alfa? Other than that, the restoration looks fairly original to me. Oh, I could pick some nits, like the wood gearshift knob, grey dash on a '68, missing rear ashtrays (how are the children going to smoke?).

Fun to read the post mortem discussion on BAT about why it didn't bring more. Was it the seller's attitude in responding to questions? Lack of photos? I don't pretend to have that answer, but will suggest that all auctions are crapshoots that can yeild surprisingly-high or surprisingly-low prices.
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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"hybrid" meaning a 2L swapped into a 1600cc Alfa? Other than that, the restoration looks fairly original to me. Oh, I could pick some nits, like the wood gearshift knob, grey dash on a '68, missing rear ashtrays (how are the children going to smoke?).

Fun to read the post mortem discussion on BAT - why didn't it bring more? Was it the seller's attitude in responding to questions? Lack of photos? I don't pretend to have that answer, but will suggest that all auctions are crapshoots that can yeild surprisingly-high or surprisingly-low prices.
Agreed, non original done well 49K is not a "lite" number.. IMHO

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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 03:54 PM
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The seller put little effort in his presentation. More details and more pictures would have gotten a bit more money. Too bad, so sad.

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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 04:34 PM
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The Veloces came in red only in 'leather' with the Bertone DeLuxe optioned body, never in red vinyl. The red textured pattern does not seem like basket weave either. The door handle angle seems odd, may be not at the correct angle.
The vinyl door cards had two stainless horizontal moldings top and bottom (and a stainless door card caps which are missing. It implies that the door cards were made of too thick of material or were just not good enough to use) similarly the bottom stainless horizontal moldings tend to get damaged so were probably not put in as they are not available as reproductions unless you have $ to spare to get the alloy new production ones. The leather door cars only had a single stainless trim at the bottom only (Did have stainless door trim caps).

The back rest of the rear seat is trimmed incorrectly and so is the base of the the rear seat, may be the metal wire frames are not original.
These metal frames of the back seats tend to rust, so if your frames are rusted they need repair, then you need to get them cleaned and zinc plated/painted. The sheet metal at the top of the rear seat frames also rusts, but you need to have a good one to start with to take to yours local engineering shop to make up (bend the sheet and weld in the two studs) endless circle of effort that takes time and finding some one prepared to do it, not that it costs allot if you have the items, but finding a good rear seats can be costly.
Interior shows short cuts that may have also been the case in the rest of the car.
The car changed hands in 2014, ( 7 years after the GFC hit when the billions of dollars govt assistance/bail out). All of the repairs on this car are with in the cultural trends of 20 plus years ago.
The market has moved on and in my opinion the market will punish cars like this and others that present themselves in this 'cultural time stamp of 20 years ago' in the future.
This hybrid car at $49k is around my previously mentioned valuation bounds for hybrid cars, see my other posts of a few months ago.
So the penalty cost to bring back a hybrid car like this is the difference you see in price between say $49k what it stopped at (not sold) and starting from $70k for a restored car in 2019. Lack of photos and receipts for work done just makes buyers nervous of more cut corners.
If you are not supplying a detailed specification sheet with photos of work done to the engine, how is the new owner expected to on sell the 2L engine to follow through and actually restoring the car with it's correct 1600 engine? The Veloces came in three different versions I know of in RHD, which were Version 1 RHD deep rear arches and Dunlop brakes. Version 2 RHD Deep rear arches with Dunlop uprights and ATE adaptor and ATE brakes. Version 3:RHD shallow rear arches with solid ATE uprights and ATE brakes. This car being a 1968 (really made in 1967: Fusi) car may be a version 3 but it has deep rear arches?
There will come a point in time when these hybrid cars will remain in their hybrid state, as it will get harder to bring them back to original. As every one has decided even the most needy Veloce cars have a long lists of parts they need so owners are stock piling parts thus penalty costs will rise, thus placing downward pressure on the sale prices of hybrid cars. In 6 to 12 months time this car may end up selling for $45k as the penalty cost could go up to $30k by then as restored cars could be selling for $75k in 6 to 12 months.
The B.A.T Romance is really all about an abundance of information/photos so the buyer can make an estimate of their penalty cost if any to restore the car

To summarize in plain terms
If you build a hybrid car it's like a venture undertaken without regard to possible loss or injury i.e. a 'crap shoot'. (Buyers will just punish you accordingly as to the perceived penalty costs)
If you build a restored car with no perceived penalty costs, it's not a crap shoot!
Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 04-25-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 04:49 PM
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Terrible colour for these cars ... I believe that had a lot to do with the lack of interest.

Pete

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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 06:04 PM
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Terrible colour for these cars ... I believe that had a lot to do with the lack of interest.
Pete
I am not sure about the exterior colour effect. (The car did sell for $93.5k before, so I will just say the exterior colour effect is transitory, it depends who is looking at the time and you can't make a general statement as to individual requirements as personal and group (trend) colour preferences change with time)

Of course a dark brown Bertone DeLuxe leather interior in this car will show some attention to detail and may go with a black car, with out the flashy aspect of a red leather interior.
Steve
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Last edited by Steve105; 04-25-2019 at 04:29 PM.
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 06:38 PM
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I am not sure about the exterior colour effect.

Of course a dark brown Bertone DeLuxe leather interior in this car will show some attention to detail and may go with a black car, with out the flashy aspect of a red leather interior.
Steve
I accept this might be a "personal preference" thing but there are colours that make these cars pop (like red, white, yellow oche, french blue, dark blue, dark green, grey ...) and colours that simply don't work (like black, light yellow, light green, silver ...)

Strangely black hides the lines and makes a 105 look ever so bland
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Frasca View Post
49K not sold for hybrid Step-front

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...tchers_bidders
The same car sold for $94,000 in 2014. Same car, different time, different venues, different results.

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/19...int-gt-veloce/
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 09:25 PM
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Heck ...

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 12:53 AM
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The same car sold for $94,000 in 2014. Same car, different time, different venues, different results.

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/19...int-gt-veloce/
That is correct, what has changed is the market is now educated and aware of the penalty costs and what they are really buying. The spectacular colour combination mentioned in the link did exist: black exterior and red interior, but only in red leather not red vinyl. I noticed the above link mentions a 1570cc engine, there is a 2L in it now.
See how easy it is for a car to switch across to a hybrid state! You would have to sink in ~$20k to bring this car to restored format, so the current owner would be into it for ~$114k. We all get carried away when bidding at times and some Auction houses are really not that clued up with these cars or the intricacies of the different models from 1963 to 1968. The auction houses tend to rely on out dated generic rules of thumb like the 20% discount on a hybrid car compared to a restored car as mentioned on a TV program in the last 12 months (a comment probably more relevant to a Ford Mustang or Chevy 30 years ago), which is not based on any fundamental principals like those I have used in my method specific to Alfa 105s, read my prior posts.

I sent a few detailed e-mails to one of the Auction houses here in Australia explaining what the differences are and the penalty bounds concept (c) they just said thanks, they later revealed the hybrid nature of the car prior the auction. The car in Australia (slightly different situation) sold in the bounds I told them it would confirming the market will punish hybrid cars and I might know something.
This LHD car just needed a full engine rebuild prior the $93.5k sale which was not done~$10k which it still needs (missing cylinder head) It also needs a full new correct interior (sure go for a red leather interior ~$10-15k to get the spectacular colour combination). It may also need a gearbox rebuild and diff rebuild who knows? I would have valued it at $35 to $45k in the state it was in at the Pebble Beach auction in 2014, not sure how much hype was at the auction, the usual, one owner with books low miles .. spin which may have been part of this car's sale, but then again not every one knows how to handle these barn find type cars. I would probably investigate if deep rear arch cars existed in late 1967(build date) in LHD form, if they did not then ask some more questions. [I looked up Fusi's page 844 and this car is listed as made in 1967 and it was the 5,034 car out of 5,576 cars made in 1967]. If deep rear arches existed on LHD cars in late 1967 (resisted as a 1968) then at $49k in BAT in 2019 its probably as good as it will get for this car in it's current hybrid state.
I'm not saying I know every thing there is to know about these cars, I'm just saying I know enough to work out the penalty bounds, i.e. the extra cost to get the car to a restored format.
Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 04-25-2019 at 09:59 PM.
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 04:38 AM
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I accept this might be a "personal preference" thing but there are colours that make these cars pop (like red, white, yellow oche, french blue, dark blue, dark green, grey ...) and colours that simply don't work (like black, light yellow, light green, silver ...)
Strangely black hides the lines and makes a 105 look ever so bland
Pete
I will tell you what really hides the lines regardless of colour used and makes the car look bland is by just rubbing down flat the 105 'crease lines'.
The factory presses (the dies/molds in the presses) were wearing out, being in operation since 1963 so crease lines of the deep arch cars were getting rounder (less sharp) by the time the last deep arch step noses where produced. The last thing you want is to round the crease lines further by rubbing them down flat. If you want the crease lines that are not flattened you need NOS front and rear guards to measure the crease line profiles (A NOS door would be good too). The high arch cars would have had new molds made, but by the time they got to the last of the GTVs 1750s and 2L they too were wearing out and crease lines were flattening off again. Who would buy NOS panels at $5k+ just to get their crease line profiles?
What was that comment about a crap shoot again?
'If you build a restored car with no perceived penalty costs, it's not a crap shoot!'
Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 04-24-2019 at 06:26 PM.
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 05:17 AM
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I will tell you what really hides the lines regardless of colour used and makes the car look bland is by just rubbing down flat the 105 'crease lines'.
The factory presses (the molds in the presses) were wearing out, being in operation since 1963 so crease lines of the deep arch cars were getting rounder (less sharp) by the time the last deep arch step noses where produced. The last thing you want is to round the crease lines further by rubbing them down flat. If you want the crease lines that are not flattened you need NOS front and rear guards to measure the crease line profiles (A NOS door would be good too). The high arch cars would have had new molds made, but by the time they got to the last of the GTVs 1750s and 2L they too were wearing out and crease lines were flattening off again. Who would buy NOS panels at $5k+ just to get their crease line profiles?
What was that comment about a crap shoot again.
If you build a restored car with no perceived penalty costs, it's not a crap shoot!
Steve
It's possible this car was prepped the same way we see others prepping the cars for paint on TV. These are the folks that slather on the bondo, then block it down. In so doing, too much bondo is left on the car and all of the accent lines tend to be less crisp. This is just a wild guess on my part.

I also noted, the seats look like they were done by an amateur.

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Last edited by ossodiseppia; 04-24-2019 at 05:21 AM.
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 06:23 AM
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Here is an active sale of car with high arches claiming to be a 1967. I guess AR T252847 has a typo or two in the number, ends in 6 hours currently at $25,100.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1967-Alfa....c100033.m2042

Only got to $30k and is now relisted

Recommissioning a moth balled car (1000 miles per year for 53 years).


Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 04-26-2019 at 04:09 PM.
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 07:18 AM
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I also noted, the seats look like they were done by an amateur.
Yea, I'll give you that. And the door panels were done by someone who didn't know what the originals looked like.


Jay Mackro
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