BAT 1750-new high watermark? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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BAT 1750-new high watermark?

There have been opinions expressed that the classic car market is soft, and from my perspective I agree with a few exceptions. Among E9 BMWs (3.0 CS/CSi/CSL), and any air cooled Porsche 911, it seems that the 105/115 range of Alfa Romeos are outperforming the market. Small sample size of course, but this is impressive.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-romeo-gtv-22/

-tj in the enough alrainy Cruz Mtns
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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 10:03 PM
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All it takes is two bidders with more ego than good sense.

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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alfa_corsa View Post
There have been opinions expressed that the classic car market is soft, and from my perspective I agree with a few exceptions. Among E9 BMWs (3.0 CS/CSi/CSL), and any air cooled Porsche 911, it seems that the 105/115 range of Alfa Romeos are outperforming the market. Small sample size of course, but this is impressive.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-romeo-gtv-22/
-tj in the enough alrainy Cruz Mtns
I did not follow the sale, but did look at the some of the pictures and noted the body number was AR 1540344. It's certainly is impressive given the underside still needs a major clean and tidy up i.e paint etc.
Even though it was delivered on June 28, 1969 and the owner can claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork. Technically this car was made in 1967 based on Fusi's range for 1967 cars AR1350001 to 1350919 see page 843. I think this ability to claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork in the USA did inflate the price by a 15-20%
If you see some of the films of the factory's storage facilities for finished cars, there were huge warehouses where they were stored. Lables placed on windscreens like USA Newark, UK, .. The dust on some of the cars was very thick, so I think cars were parked there for over a year, may be more, until the dealer paid for the cars.

My estimates back in December 2018 I noted that the 1750 GTV LHD cars were on the rise
My December 2018 comments
"1750 GTV Steel cars top condition restored cars. These prices are on the rise due to diminishing supply of cars presenting in standard format, due to need of 'outlaw' car make overs.
LHD GTV 1967 $55,000-65,000
LHD GTV 1968 $70,000-80,000
LHD GTV 1969 $110,000-120,000
LHD GTV 1970 $70,000-80,000
LHD GTV 1971 $70,000-80,000"

Cars made in 1967 and delivered in 1969 I think did occur in other countries as well, and at the time of the factory strikes in 1971/72.

I did not see a copy in the photos of the Alfa Centro Documentazione certificate. My guess it may list the car as a 1967, it just depends when the car left the factory gate (or warehouse). I still stand by my estimates list, but with a caveat the list refers to car as per Fusi's list. In general 1969 cars based on Fusi's list would have a body number 1533348 to 1533987.

On examining the 1969 body numbers for GTAms there are three listed under under AR1530919. This indicates the factory/Autodelta were using early body shells and building them to later specs. This could just have been another body shell put aside for one of these applications but never used for racing/testing, so was built up and on sold as a road car before the series 2 1750 with it's different interior and bumpers came onto the market.
Don't forget the clean air act for the control of air pollution from motor vehicles in 1960's dictated how cars presented themselves, carbies/fuel injection etc.

Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 03-07-2019 at 02:31 AM.
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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:20 AM
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It was nice to see a car without the underside primping go for that figure. Perhaps the buyer sees a return by addressing that easy task.. I think the one that hit like 80 in Canada kind of set an umbrella for these cars. There is no argument they are about as special as the "67 GT Veloce in rarity and specs, including seats, dash and performance. I do believe there is enough different about them to boost them as much as 50% over the ubiquitous GTV 2 liter.. especially if you have been looking a long time for them or you are Porsche-file looking for your first Alfa..which seems to be a good virus in the air. I would have expected the Ferrari crowd to step up 10 years ago but that hasn't panned out, IMO. This car was buoyed by two bidders and the winner was either a collector or a middleman on a mission. Check his history. I do believe good 2 liters are still going to be available around 40 for the foreseeable future with the "puppy-mill" in Socal being the outlier. Clean one and two owner cars are going to have to find new homes just based on life expectancy of the owners. It's a math cycle. The 911 crowd is going through this stage now and they softened a bit from a burst of supply and demand hasn't quite kept pace., yet the pool of buyers still seems robust... and is very wealthy willing to expand their collections of Porsches.

I do believe it might not be a good time to speculate on the upside.... Detroit iron has a huge sucking sound. I wouldn't bet a college education on the market. Even good cars are not being snapped up in days like they used to. Some languish for years unsold. Check out the white Sprint FS.. It started 2 years ago in the 80's if you follow the the poster and it is approaching the charity donation level.

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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 05:23 AM
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Please correct me if I am wrong or someone has already commented but the tail lights on this car aren't correct for a US 69 model.
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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 06:26 AM
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Pardon my ignorance, I’m still learning about these old Alfa’s! but what’s special about a 1969 model?
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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 07:13 AM
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Pardon my ignorance, I’m still learning about these old Alfa’s! but what’s special about a 1969 model?
In the US the 1750 with Spica was introduced in '69.. not technically sold in 1968 or 1970, and a few sold in 1971 with some trim (big tailights and seat mods). '69 had the last small taillights and buttress seats. and arguably the best dash ( like '69 juniors which we didn't import and were Scalinos). The dash shared in 1971 and '69 twin binnacle.. The subject car just sold for 65.. Here is an example that was about 50%( $31000 less) that just sold a month ago to the same audience of buyers and is as good or better a car with NO sacrifice of the buttress seats (scooped from a '69) and a FI loss (+ or - on that). This car had flares by the uneducated that dragged the price down and the dealer was motivated. .. a good combo for smart buyers. 1972 introduced the 2 liter and ALFA never looked back. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-romeo-gtv-13/

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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
I did not follow the sale, but did look at the some of the pictures and noted the body number was AR 1540344. It's certainly is impressive given the underside still needs a major clean and tidy up i.e paint etc.
Even though it was delivered on June 28, 1969 and the owner can claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork. Technically this car was made in 1967 based on Fusi's range for 1967 cars AR1350001 to 1350919 see page 843. I think this ability to claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork in the USA did inflate the price by a 15-20%
Hi Steve, I think you crossed up a few digits. The car is indeed a '69 USA GTV. It rolled down the line 14 cars after mine, which was made on March 13th, and arrived in the US in April of 1969. BTW, the actual serial # of the BaT car is AR1530344.

I agree with all the sentiments about the '69s. I also have '74 and, although I am very fond of both, the '69 wins on all fronts.
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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:21 AM
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Interesting...and nice to see.

"This 1969 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV was ordered new by a Navy Lieutenant at Import Auto Services in New Orleans, Louisiana, and delivered on June 28, 1969. "

I bought mine as a Navy Lieutenant just back from a Westpac deployment in San Diego in 1985. It's had a lot of different garages in the past 34 years and is now back home in San Diego, fully restored with the help of the Alfaman in Novato!

Hard to believe $2500 turned into $60K+.
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1969 GTV 1750
1966 Super
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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 09:55 AM
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The #1 highest price paid for a GTV on BaT is $78500 US and it was a 1969 1750, in fact 4 of the top 6 prices paid for GTVs on BaT are all 1969 S1 USA 1750 GTVs. The red one just sold was the 6th highest at $69000 US. The S1 1750 GTV USA version was the best GTV available to the US market. But the rest of the world could get the Euro S1 1750 GTV or the Euro S2 1750 GTV. The S2 1750 USA version loses points (for me any way) because of the large all red tail lites, the glue in windshield and the raised ride height. Mechanically loses points on the engine, not near as strong as the Euro S2 engine(carbs, dizzy, cams).
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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 11:01 AM
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Great to see a nice #3 condition car get this much respect at auction!



mber was AR 1540344. It's certainly is impressive given the underside still needs a major clean and tidy up i.e paint etc.
Even though it was delivered on June 28, 1969 and the owner can claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork. Technically this car was made in 1967 based on Fusi's range for 1967 cars AR1350001 to 1350919 see page 843. I think this ability to claim it to be a 1969 on the paperwork

Someone may want to take another look at those numbers........

'64 Guilia Spider
'67 GTV
'68 Giulia Super

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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 12:52 PM
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i was told by our late papajam mine was built in 68, technically its a 69 usa s1 gtv model

in addition to what mentioned already the 69 spica gtv are rare, have unique bumpers with integrated turn signals, ferrari type marker lamps, twin circuit brakes with floor pedals, different rear bulkhead, airbox and idle circuit. the spica pump dosent have the cut-off solenoid giving it a wondrous burble on overrun during decel.
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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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Model years
I'm afraid I don't quite get the veracity of using import/registration dates as model year dates, and using that to label and value a vehicle.
Theoretically, two very different cars, made 2 years apart, one of which sat in Alfa's car park for two years, the other one fresh off the production line, could be sent to the US (not picking on the US) and be labelled as the same model year?
I DO get that a manufacturer might start making changes and labelling production from, say, October onwards, as being 'next year models', but...
Am I missing something?
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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 03:47 PM
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Ranz, I agree with you. I think all S1 USA 1750 USA GTVs are the same no matter if it was built in 68, 69 or 70. There is variation in the S1 Euro 1750 GTVs as the first bunch made had cross over air cleaner like the 1600 GTV of the mid 60s.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-club-canada-toronto-chapter/149533-alfa-parts-garage-sale.html
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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:01 PM
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I dont think you can easily pass off any gtv as 69 usa spica gtv. to do so would be financial suicide given the many bespoke parts for that specific year. It was near impossible to find many of these parts 30 years ago yet alone today

there are tons of sheet metal mounting tabs and mounting bosses for the brake reservoirs, coolant tank, boosters the are not found in any other gtv in this location. rear bulkhead is different along with the plastic access covers that differs form the S2 1750-2000 cars possibly found in late stepnose jrs which in themselves are a hotchpot of mix and match sheet metal.

you need to fit the smaller windshield and back-glass are smaller along with the different trim if one was to covert it from a s2 or 2L body shell bit then you have the floor mounted pedals to deal with along with the holes in the front bulkhead. Pedal box, MC, MC mounts, MC cover, trans mount would need to be converted or sourced. the list just goes on forever for some of these NLA parts

any attempt to "pass off" as a 69 car would be noticed immediately by any causal alfa enthusiast. if they were to go to extreme lengths to do an convincing example out of a different year car it would surely swallow up the extra 10-15% value in a heartbeat.

in 68-69 a merit of usa federal mandates where beginning to be enforced. however depending of the state or port of entry, im sure many non-compliant cars were imported (I myself had 2 eurospec non usa cars). officially there werent ANY alfa's tag for usa in 1970 yet a number of euro spec came in through canada
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