BAT 1750-new high watermark? - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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Disegno Bertone .... built at Arese

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Body panels were made and welded up at Bertone, not at the Alfa assembly factory....
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post #62 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 PM
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GTV Prices on BAT

I believe if you go back and look at the cars sold on BAT in the last six months, you'll see that quite
a few late 1960s and early 1970s ( 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72 ) GTVs have sold in the $45K to $70K range.
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post #63 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 02:33 AM
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Some 1750 GTV Alfas are rare and sought after and some are rare and not as sought after. Based on Fusi's numbers/corrections it what appears like a limited supply of 1750 105 cars were exported into the US(51) and RHD (45) versions (Australia mainly). Since we have been through the way how the US dealers listed build dates and that cars in Australia cars took longer to get here, probably just have to go with what is on the official paperwork and if it presents as the model you want, good. The Alfa 105register also can assist, but it may also be confusing the situation a little as even though it lets owners list the build date, it is not qualifying as to which build dates are listed. Are the dates the official factory build dates or the registration document build date?
There was unrest at the Alfa Arese factory in the late sixties early seventies which hampered I think record keeping and production and had flow on effects at the showroom floor with creative labeling of build dates.
A few actual examples of 1750 GTVs that I have the official factory build dates for
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date May 1968; Fusi: 1969
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date July 1968; Fusi: 1969
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date Feb 1969; Fusi: 1970
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date March 1969; Fusi: 1970
S2 1750 RHD Official Factory build date May 1970; Fusi: Not listed

From this I have to conclude that the bounds for RHD 1750 GTV years Fusi used are not substantiated by factory build records in these cases for RHD cars. Fusi lists 1450001 to 1453558, but the 105 register lists cars from 1450031 to 1456863 so about 6,162 cars.

If you look at the body numbers in Fusi's book for the 51 (USA) cars they start from 1533348 to 1535675. The 105 register lists cars from 1530021 to 1533183 only so about 3162 cars.

In both instances it would appear more 51 US cars (600) and more 45 RHD cars (~2,500) were built if basing calculations on lowest and highest body build number in the 105 Register compared to Fusi's list.

I will hazard a wild guess that the body numbers for 45 cars and 51 cars have been mixed up by Fusi!

There is a possibility that we can correct the bounds in Fusi's book for 1750 GTVs at least just by listing the build date on the factory certificate, or even contacting the Centro Documentazione.
Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 03-15-2019 at 03:54 AM.
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post #64 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 11:06 AM
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My initial response to seeing this BAT sale is: to quote Barnum, “There’s one born every minute.”

Was never a big Giulia Sprint – GTV et all, fan.
Did have a GTA Corsa rebuilt by Howard Jackson and put back on the road and licensed with a 2-liter 225hp engine. At 1600 pounds it was fun. When he developed the Jafco turbo system on it, it was startling.
…but the GTVs, not of such great interest. To see them rolling over for these prices would seem to bring into question the veracity of the seller and the sanity of the buyer, especially one in this condition.
But then there is a whole generation of old Alfa folks, who were used to visiting similarly infected friends who were always in the process and potential of loosing their marriages if they didn’t sell a couple of their four or five Alfas in the yard next to the garage. There always seemed to be a tired Giulietta Normale, Sprint or Spyder, didn’t matter. A Berlina, “The wife’s”, a pre-Colombo 2000 Spyder, original, ready for restoration, just beyond budget, “It will return some money some day”, or maybe a 2600 Coupe, better shape, but similarly neglected. The prize Giulietta Spyder, maybe needing a new wiring harness, or top, or reupholstery, but “right there”. And then the GTV. The tired, faded, every day, GTV. Kept outside. No cover, next to the old Normale. But driven and maintained. “Been meaning to do the driver’s seat.”
The joy of their fun was they cost, well, not much. They changed hands between friends, for, well, not much. Were always in the same condition when you saw them a decade later, nice, sweet sounding, running well, “been meaning to get the seat done. Could use some paint” But always fun on a union salary.
Now you see these prices ands wonder, “Who the hell is buying them?”
And you feel bad for them, because half the joy was the low cost pleasure of their companionship, and returned passion.
As we used to say at the time, that time stretching from the seventies into the eighties, “BMWs were like kissing your sister, Alfa’s, well they were like getting l…” well you get the point, because there was always that day when you wondered, on the way back from the Ortega highway, “How did I manage to survive that?” It was that drive, the details of which you never told your wife, but it bought a few beers over time.
So, perhaps I stand corrected. As cars have become so incredibly bloodless, the delicate oscillations of an old, many times enjoyed, GTV may have come into its own…but will it be so simply and completely enjoyed as when considered, perhaps, the car to sell, to finish the Giulietta Spyder, “Hey, I can get 12 maybe 15 grand for the Spyder finished!
“Then I can go buy back the GTV, and get that seat fixed, and maybe finish the 2000 Spyder…”
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post #65 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
Some 1750 GTV Alfas are rare and sought after and some are rare and not as sought after. Based on Fusi's numbers/corrections it what appears like a limited supply of 1750 105 cars were exported into the US(51) and RHD (45) versions (Australia mainly). Since we have been through the way how the US dealers listed build dates and that cars in Australia cars took longer to get here, probably just have to go with what is on the official paperwork and if it presents as the model you want, good. The Alfa 105register also can assist, but it may also be confusing the situation a little as even though it lets owners list the build date, it is not qualifying as to which build dates are listed. Are the dates the official factory build dates or the registration document build date?
There was unrest at the Alfa Arese factory in the late sixties early seventies which hampered I think record keeping and production and had flow on effects at the showroom floor with creative labeling of build dates.
A few actual examples of 1750 GTVs that I have the official factory build dates for
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date May 1968; Fusi: 1969
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date July 1968; Fusi: 1969
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date Feb 1969; Fusi: 1970
S1 1750 RHD Official Factory build date March 1969; Fusi: 1970
S2 1750 RHD Official Factory build date May 1970; Fusi: Not listed

From this I have to conclude that the bounds for RHD 1750 GTV years Fusi used are not substantiated by factory build records in these cases for RHD cars. Fusi lists 1450001 to 1453558, but the 105 register lists cars from 1450031 to 1456863 so about 6,162 cars.

If you look at the body numbers in Fusi's book for the 51 (USA) cars they start from 1533348 to 1535675. The 105 register lists cars from 1530021 to 1533183 only so about 3162 cars.

In both instances it would appear more 51 US cars (600) and more 45 RHD cars (~2,500) were built if basing calculations on lowest and highest body build number in the 105 Register compared to Fusi's list.

I will hazard a wild guess that the body numbers for 45 cars and 51 cars have been mixed up by Fusi!

There is a possibility that we can correct the bounds in Fusi's book for 1750 GTVs at least just by listing the build date on the factory certificate, or even contacting the Centro Documentazione.
Steve
600ish usa spica series I 1750 was the number i was given 30 yrs ago. seems like the later numbers tally have gone up through the internet.

jokingly i may have seen half of them literally rust out and tossed out. :-) i wonder what the remaining numbers are now?
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post #66 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 12:55 AM
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jokingly i may have seen half of them literally rust out and tossed out. :-) i wonder what the remaining numbers are now?
Exactly how many exist today? the supply of finished/restored cars, drivers and projects have their own supply curves, and with this come the demand, individuals who have their own requirements as to what they want.
A restored car saves you 4 years in time, pay and drive now. Driver cars are pay now, with a delayed pay later for restoration/modification, while projects are pay now and keep paying for a few years until the cars is restored.
In the US and Australia there are stringent import regulations today, that can make importing cars into either country an issue. In a nut shell how many 1750 GTV's existing today in the US or Australia I would consider as a fixed in supply, so with a limited supply and the 'Coolness' /Cult effect and what appears like the blue chip investment status of the cars I see prices in these two countries rising, based on a few factors which include high quality/ with high prices for performance replacement parts, prices of NOS parts, and freight costs for speedy delivery from the rest of the world. I mentioned before the the survival rate of cars was influenced in the 80's by lack of supply of NOS factory panels and good cars being chopped up to save other needy cars, apart from their rust issues.

At the time Fusi was putting his lists together he had no idea the internet was going to enable the world to review his numbers. He did what he could, probably with a time budget and got things mixed up, the two typos that over estimated 44 cars by 10,000, and getting the 45 and 51 cars's numbers mixed up, it does not matter as long as we are aware of the situation and take steps to correct the miss information. I have placed a correction/my view in Wiki concerning the 44 cars, that I think Fusi overestimated production by 10,000 cars. I also think that the 51 cars and 45 cars were underestimated by 3100 cars (600+2500). Which in effect has reduced the number of 1750's GTVs by about 6900 cars (10000-3100), still a large number of missing cars.
So now we are starting off with base of ~35,000 cars and have to guess the number of cars destroyed. Since I don't know how many were destroyed I will put four scenarios forward
Case 1: 50% of 1750 GTVs were destroyed leaving 17,600 cars.
Case 2: 80% of 1750 GTVs were destroyed leaving 7,000 cars.
I will choose two percentage figures for restored cars 5 % and 20 %
Scenario A of the 17,600 cars left we have 5% restored = 880 cars
Scenario B of the 17,600 cars left we have 20% restored = 3520 cars
Scenario C of the 7,000 cars left we have 5% restored = 350 cars
Scenario D of the 7,000 cars left we have 20% restored = 1400 cars

Around the world (some cars may not be in clubs) how many cars have presented in 2018 as restored? You can see where I am heading again with trying to work out a bounds for restored cars.
and then work backwards as a plausible restoration percentage and thus cars still in existence.
So some were between 350 to 3520 cars.
Cars not in clubs are say in a sudo club, so I will add 20% to the number of official clubs.
There are say 100 clubs plus sudo clubs world wide, there are 2 to 5 restored cars in each club so 200 to 500 restored cars in total in 2018.
As a guess, I doubt 3,520 cars can present as restored in 2018 as restored, so that rules out Scenario B that 20 % of 17,600 cars are restored.
So now with 500 cars as the upper limit we are looking at some were between Scenario A of the 17,600 cars left we have 5% restored = 880 cars and Scenario C of the 7,000 cars left we have 5% restored = 350 cars
I think its plausible/probability > 50% that the 200 to 500 cars presenting as restored are from the subset of my guess of 7,000 cars left. So 200 cars are ~2.9 % restoration percentage of 7000 cars and
500 cars are ~7.2 % restoration percentage of 7000 cars. There are ~203 1750 GTVs on the 105 register and not all are restored.

Most owners would have knowledge of other cars not in clubs. Restore can be interpreted to include early complete survivors.

Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 03-20-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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post #67 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 05:24 AM
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Since this thread covers 63-to 1977 I wonder how many early complete survivors there are (in my case a {restored x2, but original} 1964 Sprint GT) I have not seen another and I live in the Northeast N.Y. Metro area.

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post #68 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 05:54 AM
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@Steve105, I would not put too much faith in Fusi's production figures. It's well known that there are errors in his numbers. D'Amico & Tabucchi book, Tutte le Vetture dal 1910 has a bit better information.
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post #69 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 02:52 PM
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@Steve105, I would not put too much faith in Fusi's production figures. It's well known that there are errors in his numbers. D'Amico & Tabucchi book, Tutte le Vetture dal 1910 has a bit better information.
I don't have access to a copy D'Amico & Tabucchi book yet when I do I will review his figures as well.
Steve
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post #70 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 12:29 PM
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I think life for 1750 GTVs (as well as other 105s) has been particularly brutal, these cars were made to a high standard and most likely sold below cost, just to keep workers employed (quite a few of the younger employees were putting themselves through Uni part time with the money they were paid, so you could have had workers who ended up with a degree, masters or PhD building your car).
The cars suffered form the lack of supply of panels and the DIY craze of the 80's learning by doing (poor repairs). As well as the cultural trends of the 80's and 90's, like recycling of the steel in car bodies. Keeping your car's mechanicals in good order in the 90's was always a struggle with parts running out. When asking for a part you always dreaded hearing the words 'No longer available', but it was always said in a sympathetic tone. Today with the internet and resources around the world devoted to performance and reproduction parts plus a small supply of NOS parts along with access to the knowledge base in Alfabb you can bring one back to showroom condition if you chose to! by either sorting it out your self or by having a specialist company do it all or part of it for you.
Steve

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post #71 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 10:55 AM
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value of my car?

I am curious. I have a 1969 1750 GTV in restoration now. It is a nut and bolt, no expense spared rotisserie restoration to original specifaction of a car with full and documented history since new. Its a european specification car which was sold new in Sweden. The restoration is very expensive indeed..........The car will be like driving a new car out of the showroom in 1969 once its done. When making the decision to restore the car, I assumed that I would be spending a lot more than what the car actually is going to be worth once its finnished.

But maybe not? How much will my car be worth? Anyone? I saw this post, and then saw prices being paid in USA mainly on BAT, and those prices surpriced me a lot. Would love to learn what you think about market value on a car like mine. Would be a very welcome surprise if my investment is not crazy from a financial point of view after all.

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post #72 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 12:57 PM
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I am curious. I have a 1969 1750 GTV in restoration now. It is a nut and bolt, no expense spared rotisserie restoration to original specifaction of a car with full and documented history since new. Its a european specification car which was sold new in Sweden. The restoration is very expensive indeed..........The car will be like driving a new car out of the showroom in 1969 once its done. When making the decision to restore the car, I assumed that I would be spending a lot more than what the car actually is going to be worth once its finnished.

But maybe not? How much will my car be worth? Anyone? I saw this post, and then saw prices being paid in USA mainly on BAT, and those prices surpriced me a lot. Would love to learn what you think about market value on a car like mine. Would be a very welcome surprise if my investment is not crazy from a financial point of view after all.
I would enjoy the drive..... insurance.... important.... leave the financial concerns to others.....👀

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post #73 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 12:57 PM
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Alfamallorca, We would need lots of photos and a good description of your car, just like a BaT ad. Look at all the sales of GTVs similar to yours and check out the sale price. A bunch of S1 USA 1750s sold recently, your S1 Euro should be worth more.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-club-canada-toronto-chapter/149533-alfa-parts-garage-sale.html
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post #74 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 01:34 PM
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I will enjoy the drive for sure Tom! Having already made the decision to spend the money a long time ago, and as I said at the time my assumption was/is that I will be spending a lot more than what the car will be worth. So no worries there!

Obviously, the car being in restoration ( see separate thread ), I cannot supply pictures like the ones on BAT. ( yet! )And my question is against the background that I do not see any cars on BAT that are like mine will be. There is a US spec car from 1969 in Rosso Amaranto that sold for 78K. I am going to be in for more in mine....... A restoration is costly.

Brad: In your oppinion, how much more would a Euro car be worth in as new condition? And my car will be in the EU market. Dont know if the market is truly international, but I assume its not?

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post #75 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 04:11 PM
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I don't keep up with prices in Europe but years ago it looked like GTVs were selling for more in Europe and UK than North America.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-club-canada-toronto-chapter/149533-alfa-parts-garage-sale.html
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