BAT 1750-new high watermark? - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 08:03 AM
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Kind of a fun thread for us GTV geeks. A couple observations:

1. According to my respective owner's manuals, the '69 weighs 2292 lbs, while the '74 weighs in at 2305 lbs. The difference is about how much I fluctuate each day.....

2. I don't know if this really impacts the value, but the '69 US GTVs are rare in the world of GTVs, with about 1200 produced. (Same is true of '71 US GTVs, also about 1200). Keep in mind more than 41,000 1750 GTVs were built for all markets from '68 -'72.

Mike Macaulay
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post #32 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sprintgtc View Post

2. I don't know if this really impacts the value, but the '69 US GTVs are rare in the world of GTVs, with about 1200 produced. (Same is true of '71 US GTVs, also about 1200). Keep in mind more than 41,000 1750 GTVs were built for all markets from '68 -'72.
I guess I recognized that in post #4
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post #33 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divotandtralee View Post
I guess I recognized that in post #4
Agreed, but I like numbers! And, production was much lower than the 1600 GT Veloce - of which about 14,000 were made.

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post #34 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 08:32 PM
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Agreed, but I like numbers! And, production was much lower than the 1600 GT Veloce - of which about 14,000 were made.
At first I was not sure of the total for 1750 GTV, as per Fusi pages 843 to 836 as there are some typos, plus now with Savill's numbers 'The Guilia Coupes 1963-1976 (1998) page 15. I am reviewing all of my calculations and assumptions and assumptions made by Savill.

I am in the process of of triple checking calculations.
Feel free to point out any errors I have made.
1967: AR 105 44 Qty: 919
1968: AR 105 44 Qty: 10,419
1968: AR 105 45 Qty: 203
1968: AR 105 51 Qty: 147

Here is how I got to 1969 numbers
69
44 1370043 1361339 8,705
45 1451657 1450204 1,454
51 1533987 1533348 6,40
see first image for 1969 GTVs from Fusi's book see page 844.
1969: AR 105 44 Qty: 8,705
1969: AR 105 45 Qty: 1,454
1969: AR 105 51 Qty: 640
Notice I have made an assumption like Savill that Fusi meant 1370043 and not 1360043 in 1969
But here is the catch: If you assume it's 1370043 and not 1360043 in 1969, so when you come to work out 1970's numbers you have to use 1370044, not 1360044, see second image for 1970 GTVs from Fusi's book, page 845.
Guess what Savill used 1360044 for 1970 that means he double counted the cars like this 1371585 minus 1360044 equals 11,542 cars as per his number 11,542 in his book
when it should have been 1371585 minus 1370044 equals 1,542.
So an over estimation of the 1970: AR 105 44 1750 GTVs by 10,000 cars!
So for 1970 GTVs I say it should be
1970: AR 105 44 Qty: 1,542
1970: AR 105 45 Qty: 912
1970: AR 105 51 Qty: 519

1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,639
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 989
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,151

1972: AR 105 44 Qty: 8
1972: AR 105 51 Qty: 18
Total 1750 GTVs 32,265 So neither Savill or Wiki are correct!
Subtotals
AR 105 44 Qty: 26,232
AR 105 45 Qty: 3,558 RHD
AR 105 51 Qty: 2,475 Fuel injected
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Last edited by Steve105; 03-11-2019 at 06:15 AM. Reason: I have corrected my calculations
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post #35 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 06:39 AM
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Wonder if we can get a breakdown of S1 and S2 in the 3 models of 1750 GTV Steve has shown?
Wiki shows 44269 for total 1750 GTV production.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-club-canada-toronto-chapter/149533-alfa-parts-garage-sale.html

Last edited by brad fischer; 03-10-2019 at 03:58 PM.
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post #36 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
officially there werent ANY alfa's tag for usa in 1970 yet a number of euro spec came in through canada
I owned a '70 Spider that came in by that route.

Ed Prytherch
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A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #37 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve105
1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,638
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 988
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,150
105.44 = European spec model, I think => carb's
105.45 = European spec model but RHD => carb's
105.51 = American spec model => Spica fuel injection

I believe all 1750's made in 1971 would be Series II's, which for the 105.45 meant floor hinged pedals, dual circuit brakes and more conventional seats (not flying buttress type). One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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Last edited by PSk; 03-10-2019 at 12:54 PM.
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post #38 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete
Pete - have you ever seen a non-US market 1750 with the larger tail lights? Can't say I ever have, always believed that was a US market thing and that all others only had the large tail lights on 2000 GTV's. Always happy to be corrected though.

Alister
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post #39 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete
Pete - have you ever seen a non-US market 1750 with the larger tail lights? Can't say I ever have, always believed that was a US market thing and that all others only had the large tail lights on 2000 GTV's. Always happy to be corrected though.
Agree
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #40 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 06:13 PM
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Here is the latest list of 1750 GTVs production as a summary (my opinions) based on Fusi's list and assumptions I have made.
67
1967: AR 105 44 Qty: 919
68
1968: AR 105 44 Qty: 10,419
1968: AR 105 45 Qty: 203
1968: AR 105 51 Qty: 147
69
1969: AR 105 44 Qty: 8,705
1969: AR 105 45 Qty: 1,454
1969: AR 105 51 Qty: 640
70
1970: AR 105 44 Qty: 1,542
1970: AR 105 45 Qty: 912
1970: AR 105 51 Qty: 519
71
1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,639
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 989
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,151
72
1972: AR 105 44 Qty: 8
1972: AR 105 51 Qty: 18
Total 1750 GTVs 32,265
See my previous post for explanations.

Savill's total of 44,276 1750 GTVs over estimates production of GTVs by 12,011 (44,276-32,265) cars.

There may be some RHD and CKD cars that make up part of the 12,011 over estimation 12,011-10,000 = 2,011 cars.

The key point there was an over estimation of 10,000 AR 105 44 1750 GTVs in the 1970 production figures as reported by Savill. From a web source another overestimation of 44,269 was posted in Wiki , Currently the web source has no reference to the 44,269 number or any primary source where it got it's numbers from.
I have made an addition to Wiki, showing my primary source and comment on my assumptions.

Subtotals
AR 105 44 Qty: 26,232
AR 105 45 Qty: 3,558 (assuming AR105 45 cars are RHD)
AR 105 51 Qty: 2,475 Fuel injected

It's just a pity it has taken over 30 years to bring this shocking revelation of 10,000 fewer AR 105 44 1750 GTVs cars were made.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 03-11-2019 at 05:31 AM.
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post #41 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad fischer View Post
Wonder if we can get a breakdown of S1 and S2 in the 3 models of 1750 GTV Steve has shown?
Wiki shows 44269 for total 1750 GTV production.
I think Series II's started in 1970 or was it '71?

Other than the dual circuit brakes, it depended on what they had in stock, but surely there would have been a first car made with dual circuit brakes and from then on always dual circuit.

So to answer your question accurately we need the chassis number of that first dual circuit braked car.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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post #42 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 07:38 PM
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If you look at the body shell for a 1970 1300 GTj in 1970 it's the same as that for 1750 GTV in 1970 I think. I would hazard a guess that with a high demand for 1300 GTj (in 1969 flat top dash: 14,854 produced, and at the end of the supply of flat top dash body shells) the factory in 1970 needed a different body shell and just grabbed 10,000 body shells from the 1750 GTV 1970 series 2 production line and stamped them 1300 GTj, of which they made 12,968 in 1970, thus the low production of 1,542 of 1970 1750 GTVs.

Last edited by Steve105; 03-10-2019 at 07:41 PM.
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post #43 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 07:43 PM
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I believe first Euro 1750 GTV with dual circuit brakes was 1375001 which makes the changeover sometime in 1971 ....

USA always had dual circuit first with bottom mounted pedals ...

Did RHD have dual circuit right from the beginning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
I think Series II's started in 1970 or was it '71?

Other than the dual circuit brakes, it depended on what they had in stock, but surely there would have been a first car made with dual circuit brakes and from then on always dual circuit.

So to answer your question accurately we need the chassis number of that first dual circuit braked car.
Pete
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post #44 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 08:02 PM
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Brain hurts 😳
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[B][I][U]Current[/U][/I][/B]
1984 Spider Veloce Deluxe
1969 GT 1300 JR
1969 1750 Spica Spider Veloce
1963 MGB
1952 MG TD
Others??!!!😃😃
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post #45 of 76 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 08:12 PM
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I had Series 11 RHD AR145 54** with twin boosters and it was listed as build date Sep 1970. Interior was leather Bertone DeLuxe option.
RHD S1 did not have twin bosters

Last edited by Steve105; 03-10-2019 at 10:34 PM.
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