Alfa Romeo GTV with factory aluminium panels - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 05:32 AM
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Hi vsharp

Thank your that post.....

Richard
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post #47 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 06:02 AM
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Pete
If GTA's are going down the production line at Arese, why are you telling me GTV's with alloy doors and boot lid were not also going down the production line?
Where were the alloy parts? At the factory so they can be installed. Where is the car painted correctly ? at the factory with the alloy parts all ready on it!
As I mentioned before the FIA homologation of 1750 GTAm group 2 is still valid. May be FIA can enlighten us.
Cheers Steve
Steve, you have idealized idea of car production in those years. Yes, GTA was produced at Arese but ONLY in its Stradale (street legal) version, and it existed in every price list available at any AR dealer worldwide, absolutely identic among them and produced with same parts and standards. NOTHING out of existing, standard list could be obtained in dealers shop as ‘keys in hands’ product. In other words, again yes, you had to buy separately the homologated peace and fix it yourself or with qualified help, but not departure out of the factory shop with racing seat, roll cage or anything else already not included in price. Everything considered tuning or particular preparation was at Autodelta pertinence where you could demand ‘personal’ differences and got them paying the right price.
For PsK; Shells destined for official agonistic activity, arrived (officially sold) in their already lightened form to Autodelta. In the factory backyard you could see only joyful dogs playing in their shelters made often with racing body parts, id significant disorder. To understand the atmosphere there, take a look at ‘Autodelta Golden Years’ site by Robert Little. It could clear your ideas.
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post #48 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 08:56 AM
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The original question was were there GTVs with alloy parts doors, bonnet and rear deck lid from the factory.
Even though the definition of factory tends to be the Alfa factory at Arese, there was also the Autodelta factory, which was acquired by Alfa Romeo in 1964, so from 1965 it too was part of Alfa, with it's own production line.

The 1750 GTV was allowed to have alloy doors and a boot lid in one of two main ways

First way was use any 1750 GTV LHD(AR1350001) or RHD (AR1450001) and then use homologation FIA 1565 Group 2 plus the FIA rules of 1st Jan 1970 and have them installed by a dealer or at the Auto Delta factory or by a private individual or by a race team to run in Group 2 in 1970/71.

The second way was use any 1750 GTV USA LHD (1350001) car that had been homologated as a GTAm and this time use the homologation FIA 1576 G2 variation 3/2V and have them installed by a dealer or at the Auto Delta factory, or by a private individual or a by a race team to run in Group 2 in 1970/71. (Side note: The twin spark engine for the GTAm was first homoligated also using FIA 1576 G2 variation 3/2V 1st Jan 1970)

A supplement to the above two would be if the Auto Delta factory, or a private individual or a team continued and built up a group 6 car full alloy car as per FIA rules.
Unfortunately FIA rules meant Autodelta could not campaign at the same time group 1 and 2 as well as group 5 and 6 using the same body shell design. (But could have built one up for you!)

What I am saying is after 50 years these things could have happened given the rules existed that made it possible to give you a car that had alloy doors and boot lid and possibly a full alloy car.

Bring yourself into 2019 and you will notice that FIA rules still allow you to race in Group 2 your 1750 GTV RHD or 1750 GTV LHD(GTAm).
38023 31/12/2025 CH-5794 Alfa Romeo 1750 GT Veloce 1565 G2 CT19
44746 31/12/2028 D-6171 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm 1576 G2 CT19
In attempting to give a clear answer we have found there probably is not one but many ways to answer and not all of us agree all the time which is great. I think this question has merit as it gives all owners of 1750 GTVs an important insight into their car.
As always my opinions
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 01-20-2019 at 05:47 AM.
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post #49 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 08:57 AM
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Yes, you could get it from Autodelta as a racing car. The cost was 7 mln liras.

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post #50 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 09:29 AM
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Steve, are you sure we're not related? This thread is like the arguments I used to have with my sisters ... 😉

This thread has been well and truly answered and is dead, move on mate.
Pete
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post #51 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 10:33 AM
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Steve,

Autodelta was not a factory, it did not have a production line.

It was a racing shop and by the modern standards, full of disorder and dogs from across Milano.
By the 60s early 70s standards it was a very efficient racing shop which could assemble some racing cars (approximately 2 per week) from ready components. Autodelta assembled engines as well.
They were so busy with racing cars that could not afford to borrow their test pilots to Alfa Romeo.

Please read some books about Autodelta, how it was organized, what they did. There were no any chances that Autodelta assembled regular 1750GTV/Am with light alloy body parts for distribution network.
There are no evidences of this. I have some books about Autodelta, Chiti has never mentioned that they assembled 1750 GTV/Am road cars, even in 70s magazines.


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post #52 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
The original question was were there GTVs with alloy parts doors, bonnet and rear deck lid from the factory.......
....What I am saying is after 50 years these things could have happened given the rules existed that made it possible to give you a car that had alloy doors and boot lid and possibly a full alloy car........
........I think this question has merit as it gives all owners of 1750 GTVs an important insight into their car.
Cheers Steve
Hi Steve,
You could also draw the same improbable conclusions for almost any model based on homologated racing options and if, buts & maybes. I doubt that it is any sort of important insight for 1750 owners, other than there was a huge list of race options that could fit across just about any Giulia model platform.
If you really want an all alloy 1750 GTV, just put all your collected alloy body parts onto one of your many cars. It would be a great special project & perhaps you could top it off with your GTA cylinder head & close ratio gearbox from your other white car. That would make it quite something. But alas, not something that might have been coming off the end of the Arese production line back in the day. It almost sounds like the sort of argument of someone who might be trying to convince Historic Racing Officials or classic car market of some unicorn model
Vince.
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post #53 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 02:05 PM
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It almost sounds like the sort of argument of someone who might be trying to convince Historic Racing Officials or classic car market of some unicorn model
Yep

A few years ago I went to Pukekohe race track in NZ for some reason (I don't think I was driving, so not sure why I was there. Think I was visiting from Sydney and my father was the starter), any way my father took me to this 1750 GTV to have a look as he had been informed by the owner that it was an Autodelta car or a GTAm. The car he showed me was as far as I could tell a dead standard series II 1750 GTV, like mine but red. Now maybe it's ownership history showed that it was once serviced or tuned by Autodelta ... and somehow ended up in NZ, but from what I could see it had absolutely no special parts on it. Maybe it was once left hand drive and the owner really said to my father that it was the chassis type that was used as the basis of the GTAm's ...

Why did I share that story?, because I suspect that this is similar to how the 1750 GTV with factory aluminium panels started. I little bit of factual information discussed with a few hungry and receptive Alfisti, and of course it's been relayed a few times since then ...
Pete

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post #54 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 02:21 PM
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I already said a few times here to get clarification for the discussion we could ask FIA. Open discussions are just that open discussions. I have presented original FIA documents to make my argument. I will leave it others to do their own research and ask their own questions to FIA.
Cheers Steve

Last edited by Steve105; 01-17-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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post #55 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve105 View Post
I already said a few times here to get clarification for the discussion we could ask FIA. Open discussions are just that open discussions. I have presented original FIA documents to make my argument. I will leave it others to do their own research and ask their own questions to FIA.
Cheers Steve
Steve, FIA Appendix J provides to a manufacturer the info how NOT to build racing cars on the production line. Appendix J does not prohibit a maximum quantities or build a racing car on the main production plant.

Your logic is correct, Alfa Romeo could make 1000+ light weighted GTV cars in Arese/Autodelta. The problem is it never happened, because it is just stupid wasting of money.
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post #56 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-17-2019, 03:43 PM
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To remind everyone of where this started, it was the first post by Ladislas asking about alloy body parts & other GTA components for a personal custom build he is doing on a smooth nose 1300 GTJunior with any or as many special parts as he can get. See some of his other postings.
He says that his car has never had any racing history of any kind & prior to the start of custom build is just a stock standard 1300GTJnr....then the thread expanded into improbable speculation (not by Lasidlas). As you said PSK, a little bit of information....
I helped Ladsilas out with some old genuine GTA doors for his project.
I'm sure it will be a very nice personal statement & an exciting car to drive when it is finished.
I think this thread has just about done now. I do wonder why it is even in GTA/GTAm section anyway?
Cheers,
Vince.
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post #57 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
I do not know if it is true or not, but I read that in 1968 s/n 613997 got 1905cc engine with two hydraulic chargers, dry sump, testa stretta head and monosleeve block. It had 315-325 HP at 7800rpm. It also received multilink suspension from TZ2. The weight of the car - 730 kg, max speed 270 km/h

The source was here. The original text is gone but I have a copy
Sport / Competition - The Alfa Romeo Autodelta GTA
what a minute, stop press!

you are telling me it had an IRS in the back off a TZ2? i would luv to see this any why hasnt any tried to reproduce a portion of this car sans the complicated steampunk driven superchargers?

sounds like a dream 105 to me...

could it be possible the sliding block was mistaken for IRS type links by the reporter?

Last edited by davbert; 01-18-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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post #58 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 02:51 PM
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what a minute, stop press!

you are telling me it had an IRS in the back off a TZ2? i would luv to see this any why hasnt any tried to reproduce a portion of this car sans the complicated steampunk driven superchargers?

sounds like a dream 105 to me...

could it be possible the sliding block was mistaken for IRS type links by the reporter?

Davbert, your dream car really existed
Strange note this one about GTA with independent rear suspension. As a matter of facts, similar car was tested by Servizio Esperienze Speciali in ’66, but it was not turbocharged engine and assertion about its power and weight are not true either. The example produced entirely at Servizio Esperienze, without involvement of Autodelta, was supplied with TZ like rear suspension and was developed over steel body GT but with all other GTA components. It was intensively tested at Mugello by Bruno Bonini that left detailed attestation about that car, described in superlative words. It was the price too high for re-elaboration of 105.32 rear suspension project, to stop its further development. Bonini described the car’s behaviour as absolutely neutral without understeering tendency that was present in other GT models. My only objection is that it is not likely that any mortal except Bonini ever tried that car, left in disuse and without engine in old Portello deposit.
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post #59 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by vsharp View Post
Hi Steve,
You could also draw the same improbable conclusions for almost any model based on homologated racing options and if, buts & maybes. I doubt that it is any sort of important insight for 1750 owners, other than there was a huge list of race options that could fit across just about any Giulia model platform.
If you really want an all alloy 1750 GTV, just put all your collected alloy body parts onto one of your many cars. It would be a great special project & perhaps you could top it off with your GTA cylinder head & close ratio gearbox from your other white car. That would make it quite something. But alas, not something that might have been coming off the end of the Arese production line back in the day. It almost sounds like the sort of argument of someone who might be trying to convince Historic Racing Officials or classic car market of some unicorn model
Vince.
Hi Vince,
What?
Regards Steve
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post #60 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Davbert, your dream car really existed
Strange note this one about GTA with independent rear suspension. As a matter of facts, similar car was tested by Servizio Esperienze Speciali in ’66, but it was not turbocharged engine and assertion about its power and weight are not true either. The example produced entirely at Servizio Esperienze, without involvement of Autodelta, was supplied with TZ like rear suspension and was developed over steel body GT but with all other GTA components. It was intensively tested at Mugello by Bruno Bonini that left detailed attestation about that car, described in superlative words. It was the price too high for re-elaboration of 105.32 rear suspension project, to stop its further development. Bonini described the car’s behaviour as absolutely neutral without understeering tendency that was present in other GT models. My only objection is that it is not likely that any mortal except Bonini ever tried that car, left in disuse and without engine in old Portello deposit.
any photos of this IRS on the 105?

its not surprising they didnt offer it even it race form. the original mustang had IRS also. in 63 they built 3 evaluation cars before it got costed out for a solid axle.
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